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Old 01-08-2011, 07:16 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jghorton View Post
How about the fact that man has every day for an entire lifetime to believe and trust God, but, refuses and continues in mockery and rebellion against God. Should God then drag them kicking and screaming into heaven and relationship with Him?

God is able and willing, but man is not. Or, do you prefer puppets who have no free will of their own?
Saul was not willing. He was murdering believers. In an instant God changed Saul to a murdering person to Paul, Christ's greatest friend.

God did it for Saul, He will do it for the rest of mankind. Did God have to drag Saul kicking and screaming into heaven? Was Saul a puppet?

 
Old 01-08-2011, 07:18 PM
 
Location: Florida -
8,238 posts, read 9,990,552 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
I know of parents who have murdered their children because they didn't want to take the chance of having them dying in their sin as adults and going into eternal torment. I guess it worked---the children certainly didn't end up in hell, but the parents went to prison for life to save them. No greater love and all that, I guess.
Come on thrillobyte -- imagining that you 'know' people like this or thinking that perhaps you heard it somewhere on the news, isn't the same thing as "knowing parents who have murdered their children."

And if parents did do such a heinous thing, and then claim, as you suggest, that "they didn't want to take the chance of having them dying in their sin as adults and going into eternal torment" .... wouldn't it be pretty clear to everyone that they were stark raving nuts?
 
Old 01-08-2011, 07:21 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
To the contrary. Jesus paid for your sins whether you believe in Him or not. It seems not to matter how many times I say it, but sin is not the issue in salvation. Your sins have been paid for and will never be mentioned by God at the Great white throne judgment of unbelievers. When a person dies having rejected Christ, he does not have the righteousness which God imputed to those who believe in Christ and therefore must stand on his own relative human righteousness - his deeds. His good works. God always rejects human good, both in the believer and in the unbeliever. In the case of the unbeliever, it is his human good which condemns him to the lake of fire forever as per Revelation 20:11-15.

Yes the unbeliever dies in his sins, but he is not judged for them, because Jesus was already judged for them. And per the law of double jeopardy, those sins cannot be judged again.
You are still proving my point, Mike.

According to you, Jesus paid for all mankind's sins but God is going to make mankind pay for their sins. So God didn't really accept Christ dying for anyone's sins.

Mike, the Bible says God is going to make all mankind righteous in Romans 5:18,19 due to what Christ did. Believest thou the bible?
 
Old 01-08-2011, 07:24 PM
 
Location: Somewhere
6,370 posts, read 5,626,466 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jghorton View Post
How about the fact that man has every day for an entire lifetime to believe and trust God, but, refuses and continues in mockery and rebellion against God. Should God then drag them kicking and screaming into heaven and relationship with Him?

God is able and willing, but man is not. Or, do you prefer puppets who have no free will of their own?
Then you agree that man is NOT able and willing. Then how is the man to be saved? At some point are you going to tell me that the man becomes willing?
 
Old 01-08-2011, 07:31 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,196,917 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jghorton View Post
Come on thrillobyte -- imagining that you 'know' people like this or thinking that perhaps you heard it somewhere on the news, isn't the same thing as "knowing parents who have murdered their children."

And if parents did do such a heinous thing, and then claim, as you suggest, that "they didn't want to take the chance of having them dying in their sin as adults and going into eternal torment" .... wouldn't it be pretty clear to everyone that they were stark raving nuts?
Not if eternal torment is true and kids are the only ones to get into heaven for free regardless of what they have done or believed.

Then it makes very good sense, if you ask me. Of course, i realize that the idea of Eternal Torment is "stark raving nuts" to begin with ...
 
Old 01-08-2011, 07:48 PM
 
20,292 posts, read 15,633,754 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Too bad you haven't found it yet. Compare the attributes typically assigned to Satan (vis-a-vis torture, torment, evil, etc.) with those that should be God's (the opposite: love, mercy, compassion, long-suffering, patience, etc.) . . . then try to apply some semblance of logic and reason about which of them is the likeliest author of what you believe, Mike. It is very obvious to the URs. Try to find that objectivity you claim the URs lack!
Evil actually includes a great deal of human good. Which while humanly speaking is good, from the standpoint of God it is comparable to used menstrual rags (Isa 64:6). Now, Satan is attempting to prove to God that he can actually control this world of which he is for the moment the ruler. And to do so he uses a great deal of human good to accomplish his purposes. And so as human good has been incorporated into Satan's plan, it is a part of cosmic diabolicus and becomes evil.

Here is how Dr. Lewis Sperry Chafer put it.

'Next to the lie itself, the greatest delusion Satan imposes---reaching to all unsaved and to a large proportion of Christians---is the supposition that only such things as society considers evil could originate with the devil---if indeed, there be any devil to originate anything. It is not the reason of man, but the revelation of God, which points out that governments, morals, education, art, commercialism, vast enterprises, and organizations, and much of religious activity are included in the cosmos diabolicus. That is, the system which Satan has constructed includes all the good which he can incorporate into it and be consistent in the thing he aims to accomplish. A serious question arises whether the presence of gross evil in the world is due to Satan's inability to execute all he had designed. The probability is great that Satan's ambition has led him to undertake more than any creature could ever administer. '

Systematic Theology, vol 2, p. 100.

Dr. Chafer was the founder and first president of Dallas Theological Seminary. At one time a leading seminary.

Satan uses whatever methods he can to achieve his goals. And human good figures into those plans heavily.

But Satan is on a lease so to speak and can only do what God allows him to do. God has a purpose for allowing Satan to attempt to prove that he can rule this world. It had been Satan's desire to usurp the throne of God. Yet, he cannot even successfully rule this world. Satan is on trial and is presenting his case before God. He has until the end of the Millennium to do so. And he will be imprisoned during the Millennium, to be released for a little while at the end of the Millennium. He will attempt a revolution which the Bible calls Gog and Magog. He will fail and then begin his eternal sentence in the lake of fire (Revelation chapter 20).

God had sentenced Satan and the fallen angels to the lake of fire. That sentence will be carried out at the end of the Millennium. At that same time, all unbelievers will be resurrected to stand judgment at the great white throne and then join Satan in the eternal fire. Also called the black darkness. And there they will remain thoughout all eternity future.
 
Old 01-08-2011, 07:54 PM
 
Location: Florida -
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Default The basic argument is flawed, as is your view of God and His ways.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dobeable View Post
1--God would know the fate of a living entity before they even came here,so if their fate was eternal hell then he wouldnt have created them in the first place.

2--God is full of mercy.not just partially but fully.

3--God is tolerant. He has an unlimited amount of the stuff.

4--God beleives in justice,and no crime fits an eternal punishment,it would be like torturing someone for their whole life for robbing a grape,at least the torture would end,so you couldnt even compare this punishment to what God is supposidly goin to do.

5-Jesus' words-''forgive them father ,they dont know what they are doing'',shows that God can forgive,if Jesus didnt beleive this then He ouldnt have askes,an the fact that he knew that our sins are commited only out of ignorance,ignorance of our true selves which are eternally full of bliss and knowledge.

6-Jesus' words-''what you reap,so shall you so'',so punishment only comes with what is just,we ill be punished according to our crimes,and no crime deserves eternal punishment,for their would be nothig good to come out of it and nothing learned.

7--Jesus' words--''easy to love your freind but to love thy enemy?''-no if Jesus is a representation of god then why do you think He'd say that if God didnt beleive in it Himself,God loves all including His enemys,he might treat them different to teach them,but to torture them forever,that just dont fit the boot!

8--its damn right satanic--torture is considered among the world as evil,even in wars torture is banned,hitler tortured some of his captured enemys,but at least the torture ended,so to think that God would torture someone for eternity would be branding Him as worse than any evil demon that ever entered the planet.

9--anyone who dosent beleive must burn!!!!!!!!!!!!..,this concept must be the worst and most easy to see through,after all their are many wo will never even hear of Jesus,and why would god have created life with so many diverse customs,so that they would differ from christianity.

10--God is Love--Love wuldnt have anything to do with torturing people forever,it is the opposite,Love only Loves,and He wants everybody in on all that heavenly glory,but we have to find it ourselves,through Him,He is the emodiement of Pure Transcendental Love,ecstatic bliss,we are the parts of the whole and he is the whole,we are the children he is the father,no father ould have even one of their sons or daughters burn forever,and its not like He couldnt do anything about it after all He is All Powerfull,so think again folks who still beleive in this concept,a concept that was handed down for the purpose of power through fear,something that im sure god had nothing to do with,or maybe He did just to test ones intelligence,and one's opinion of Him,the charachter of God the Supreme Person,,what is He really like!!!!!!!!!!!!!!aan unjust punisher or a real freind of all living entity's who is impartial to all.
There are (at least) THREE fundamental flaws in your argument:


(1). You have "Wrongly dividing the Word of Truth" in a way that simply supports an otherwise unBiblical position. While all scripture is inspired, all interpretations are not … and yours certainly fits into the latter category.


(2). You have confused God and His ways with man and His ways --- and then used “rational lies” to invent “a ‘god’ who would not operate the way he does, if he were a man.” God is righteous, holy and just -- whether you understand it or not!


(3) You have chosen to pick and choose partial verses from scripture (and others from who knows where) to support your disbelief in hell. Yet, you reject countless other specific Bible passages that explicitly refer to an eternal hell/darkness/condemnation (Isn’t that, in fact, the entire basis for your argument … “That the Bible clearly says something that you do not want to believe.” In doing so, however, you have completely undermined any credibility you might otherwise have, for using scripture to ‘support’ your position.
 
Old 01-08-2011, 07:55 PM
 
17,968 posts, read 12,425,536 times
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Mike, if fire puts out black darkness would you conclude it isn't really fire since fire, real fire puts out light?
 
Old 01-08-2011, 08:54 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
You are still proving my point, Mike.

According to you, Jesus paid for all mankind's sins but God is going to make mankind pay for their sins. So God didn't really accept Christ dying for anyone's sins.
No, I did not say that.

Quote:
Mike, the Bible says God is going to make all mankind righteous in Romans 5:18,19 due to what Christ did. Believest thou the bible?
That is not its meaning. No man is made righteous apart from faith in Christ. It is only at the point of faith in Christ that God imputes His righteusness to the one who has believed. At that point, God declares him to be justified.

The work of justifcation was accomplished by Christ at the cross (Rom 5:8,9).

Because the work for our justification was accomplished at the cross, Christ was resurrected to relate justification to His strategic victory (Romans 4:25).

But the work of justification is not applied to anyone apart from a personal decision to believe in Christ for salvation.

Romans 3:28 ' For we maintain that a man is justifed by faith apart from the works of the Law... 30] since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one.

Eusebius, I don't mean to be insulting, but you simply do not comprehend things that are said to you. I will say it one more time. Jesus Christ paid for the sins of the world. That means everybody ( John 3:16; Hebrews 10:12)

God has NEVER held man's personal sins against man. God condemned man on the basis of ONE sin. The original sin of Adam. That sin is imputed to the sin nature of every person who is born. Jesus Christ was excluded because of His virgin birth. The old sin nature is passed down thought the male. Because of His virgin birth, Jesus had no sin nature, and Adam's original sin could not be imputed to Christ.

As for mans's PERSONAL sins, God the Father set them aside until that time in history when Christ went to the cross. At that time, God judged Jesus for our personal sins. He took our place.

Because of the fact that our sins have been judged, our personal sins ARE NOT AN ISSUE IN SALVATION. THE ONLY ISSUE IN SALVATION IS WILL YOU BELIEVE IN CHRIST FOR SALVATION OR NOT?

Now if a person dies without Christ, he does die in his sins, but he is not judged for those sins. He is judged on the basis of his good works which originated from his relative human righteousness.

The unbeliever is not judged for his sins. They were already judged at the cross and CANNOT be judged again. The only thing the unbeliever is judged for is his works. The more the unbeliever tries to work his way to heaven, the deeper into debt he goes.

The ONLY issue in salvation is this.

John 3:36 'He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey (believe) the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.''

Now please try to comprehend what I just said. Jesus paid for your sins whether you believe in Him or not. The barrier of sin which stood between man and God is gone. It is the responsibility of each person to walk over the line where the barrier of sin used to be by simply placing his faith in Christ for salvation. Failure to do so results in eternal separation from God.
 
Old 01-08-2011, 09:07 PM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,402,926 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jghorton View Post
Come on thrillobyte -- imagining that you 'know' people like this or thinking that perhaps you heard it somewhere on the news, isn't the same thing as "knowing parents who have murdered their children."

And if parents did do such a heinous thing, and then claim, as you suggest, that "they didn't want to take the chance of having them dying in their sin as adults and going into eternal torment" .... wouldn't it be pretty clear to everyone that they were stark raving nuts?
Someone is nuts for trying to guarantee that their own child will not be tormented forever?

What is nuts here is how far the twisted doctrine of eternal torment will push someone.
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