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Old 01-08-2011, 10:13 PM
 
20,330 posts, read 15,701,005 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
Mike, if fire puts out black darkness would you conclude it isn't really fire since fire, real fire puts out light?
The language which the Bible uses to describe the eternal prison where both fallen angels and unregenerate mankind will reside in separation from God, is descriptive. Human lanquage cannot adequately convey the conditions of hell. The Bible uses a number of different discriptions to emphatically emphasize that hell is not a place anyone wants to be. Listen. Figurative lanquage is not used to make a place seem worse than it is. It is instead used when words fall short of the mark. So you can be assured that the conditions in the lake of fire, whatever its true nature is, will be at least as bad as the Bible portrays it. But hell is not Dante's version of it. No one is going to have their skin flayed off them. I never read Dante, but I understand that he wrote something like that.

In hell, the unbeliever will be in a state of utter ruin and eternal uselessness. He will be in torment. I can't describe the nature of the place. But it is real, and it is eternal.

 
Old 01-08-2011, 10:18 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,825 posts, read 9,835,683 times
Reputation: 1302
[quote=jghorton;17322156]
Quote:
Originally Posted by jghorton View Post
There are (at least) THREE fundamental flaws in your argument:


(1). You have "Wrongly dividing the Word of Truth" in a way that simply supports an otherwise unBiblical position. While all scripture is inspired, all interpretations are not … and yours certainly fits into the latter category.


(2). You have confused God and His ways with man and His ways --- and then used “rational lies” to invent “a ‘god’ who would not operate the way he does, if he were a man.” God is righteous, holy and just -- whether you understand it or not!


(3) You have chosen to pick and choose partial verses from scripture (and others from who knows where) to support your disbelief in hell. Yet, you reject countless other specific Bible passages that explicitly refer to an eternal hell/darkness/condemnation (Isn’t that, in fact, the entire basis for your argument … “That the Bible clearly says something that you do not want to believe.” In doing so, however, you have completely undermined any credibility you might otherwise have, for using scripture to ‘support’ your position.


The common starting point ... (if you read enough of them).... is:
  1. IMO ...it makes no sense
  2. IMO .... it's not fair
  3. IMO ...... therefore, it's not just
 
Old 01-08-2011, 10:28 PM
 
37,621 posts, read 25,318,615 times
Reputation: 5862
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post


The common starting point ... (if you read enough of them).... is:
IMO ...it makes no sense
Then explain it so that it does make sense . . if you can!
Quote:
IMO .... it's not fair
Then explain it so that it is obvious why it is fair . . . if you can!
Quote:
IMO ...... therefore, it's not just
Then show how it is just . . . if you can!

Otherwise shut up and pout about the ignorance that you continue to believe in without reason or justification.
 
Old 01-08-2011, 10:54 PM
 
20,330 posts, read 15,701,005 times
Reputation: 7467
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
Saul was not willing. He was murdering believers. In an instant God changed Saul to a murdering person to Paul, Christ's greatest friend.

God did it for Saul, He will do it for the rest of mankind. Did God have to drag Saul kicking and screaming into heaven? Was Saul a puppet?
To the contrary. Just as everyone comes to Christ through the gospel, so did Paul. He received the gospel directly from Jesus Himself on the Damascus road.

Much earlier, right after Jesus had been resurrected, He made a number of personal appearances. On one occasion, He appeared to over 500 people. And He gave the gospel concerning Himself.

Now however a person receives the gospel, though reading the Bible, or a tract, or from some person, or in the case of Saul and the people Jesus had earlier appeared to, that person must make a decision whether He wants to have a relationship with Christ. During the Millennium, Jesus Christ will be personally on the earth ruling from the throne of David. And there will be people who reject Him.

God had always known that Paul would respond to the gospel when Jesus appeared to Him in a vision. Another man in Saul's place might of believed in Jesus but still not have been willing to carry out the plan that God had for him. But God knew that Paul would for the most part be obedient to God's will for his life. He did undergo discipline for willfully disobeying God on an occasion or two.

And remember also, that the angels who rebelled against God, had been in the presence of God and still rebelled.

Both man and angel have volition. And God does not force anyone to believe in Him.
 
Old 01-08-2011, 11:04 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,825 posts, read 9,835,683 times
Reputation: 1302
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Then explain it so that it does make sense . . if you can! Then explain it so that it is obvious why it is fair . . . if you can! Then show how it is just . . . if you can!

Otherwise shut up and pout about the ignorance that you continue to believe in without reason or justification.
Ephesians 5:17
Therefore do not be foolish, but understand what the Lord’s will is.

what is the Lord's will:
John 6:40
For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life,

why it is fair ........... the Father’s will
how it is just .......... the Father’s will

Guess a person really must be of primitave ancestry to be a fool (Ephesians 5:17) to not understand John 6:40 and John 3:36


John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on him.”

Last edited by twin.spin; 01-08-2011 at 11:16 PM.. Reason: for got why it's the father's will .......... John 3:36
 
Old 01-09-2011, 12:50 AM
 
10,200 posts, read 10,582,449 times
Reputation: 3030
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
And I know of a guy who swallowed his glass eye. And when he couldn't pass it ... the guy tried to blame the eye doctor.

To which the Doctor said:
"Well... It's all in the eye of the beholder"
Eye got a good chuckle out of that one, twin. You see, people of opposing views can sometimes see eye to eye.
 
Old 01-09-2011, 01:05 AM
 
10,200 posts, read 10,582,449 times
Reputation: 3030
Quote:
Originally Posted by jghorton View Post
Come on thrillobyte -- imagining that you 'know' people like this or thinking that perhaps you heard it somewhere on the news, 1.isn't the same thing as "knowing parents who have murdered their children."

And if parents did do such a heinous thing, and then claim, as you suggest, that "they didn't want to take the chance of having them dying in their sin as adults and going into eternal torment" .... 2.wouldn't it be pretty clear to everyone that they were stark raving nuts?
1. I'm pretty sure I typed the preposition "of" after "know", which is vastly different from "know parents".

2. Not everyone. Certainly there are many ET'ers who would rejoice at the parents having saved their children from the possibility of landing in eternal hell-fire. Now they might be stark, raving nuts.
 
Old 01-09-2011, 01:49 AM
 
10,200 posts, read 10,582,449 times
Reputation: 3030
Quote:
God has NEVER held man's personal sins against man. (huh ) God condemned man on the basis of ONE sin. The original sin of Adam. That sin is imputed to the sin nature of every person who is born. Jesus Christ was excluded because of His virgin birth. The old sin nature is passed down through the male. (huh? I mean I know women always have the advantage in a romantic relationship but this is ridiculous! Talk about a bum rap! Wasn't it Eve who got us here in the first place, no offense, girls. ) Because of His virgin birth, Jesus had no sin nature, and Adam's original sin could not be imputed to Christ.

As for mans's PERSONAL sins, God the Father set them aside until that time in history when Christ went to the cross. (huh? )At that time, God judged Jesus for our personal sins. He took our place.

Because of the fact that our sins have been judged, our personal sins ARE NOT AN ISSUE IN SALVATION. THE ONLY ISSUE IN SALVATION IS WILL YOU BELIEVE IN CHRIST FOR SALVATION OR NOT?

Now if a person dies without Christ, he does die in his sins, but he is not judged for those sins. He is judged on the basis of his good works which originated from his relative human righteousness. (I don't mean to be insulting, but this smacks of cultism)

The unbeliever is not judged for his sins. They were already judged at the cross and CANNOT be judged again. The only thing the unbeliever is judged for is his works. The more the unbeliever tries to work his way to heaven, the deeper into debt he goes.
I cannot wrap my brain around this. The OT is replete with examples of God bringing judgment onto the children of Israel for their sins. Was God holding them accountable only for Adam's sin when He nearly wiped them out for worshipping the golden calf, for sacrificing their children to Molech, for continuously running after other idols, etc ? If God was only yawning at their sins the whole 4000 years from Adam to Christ, then why were the Israelites carried off into captivity on two separate occasions when their sins were at their height? And how often does it appear in the OT, "your sins have ....." I mean unless I'm seriously misunderstanding what Mike is trying to say here.
 
Old 01-09-2011, 08:46 AM
 
17,968 posts, read 12,460,663 times
Reputation: 989
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
No, I did not say that.



That is not its meaning. No man is made righteous apart from faith in Christ. It is only at the point of faith in Christ that God imputes His righteusness to the one who has believed. At that point, God declares him to be justified.

The work of justifcation was accomplished by Christ at the cross (Rom 5:8,9).

Because the work for our justification was accomplished at the cross, Christ was resurrected to relate justification to His strategic victory (Romans 4:25).

But the work of justification is not applied to anyone apart from a personal decision to believe in Christ for salvation.

Romans 3:28 ' For we maintain that a man is justifed by faith apart from the works of the Law... 30] since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one.

Eusebius, I don't mean to be insulting, but you simply do not comprehend things that are said to you. I will say it one more time. Jesus Christ paid for the sins of the world. That means everybody ( John 3:16; Hebrews 10:12)

God has NEVER held man's personal sins against man. God condemned man on the basis of ONE sin. The original sin of Adam. That sin is imputed to the sin nature of every person who is born. Jesus Christ was excluded because of His virgin birth. The old sin nature is passed down thought the male. Because of His virgin birth, Jesus had no sin nature, and Adam's original sin could not be imputed to Christ.

As for mans's PERSONAL sins, God the Father set them aside until that time in history when Christ went to the cross. At that time, God judged Jesus for our personal sins. He took our place.

Because of the fact that our sins have been judged, our personal sins ARE NOT AN ISSUE IN SALVATION. THE ONLY ISSUE IN SALVATION IS WILL YOU BELIEVE IN CHRIST FOR SALVATION OR NOT?

Now if a person dies without Christ, he does die in his sins, but he is not judged for those sins. He is judged on the basis of his good works which originated from his relative human righteousness.

The unbeliever is not judged for his sins. They were already judged at the cross and CANNOT be judged again. The only thing the unbeliever is judged for is his works. The more the unbeliever tries to work his way to heaven, the deeper into debt he goes.

The ONLY issue in salvation is this.

John 3:36 'He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey (believe) the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.''

Now please try to comprehend what I just said. Jesus paid for your sins whether you believe in Him or not. The barrier of sin which stood between man and God is gone. It is the responsibility of each person to walk over the line where the barrier of sin used to be by simply placing his faith in Christ for salvation. Failure to do so results in eternal separation from God.
Mike, since God has told us all mankind are going to be made righteous DUE TO WHAT CHRIST DID in Romans 5:18,19 and that God is going to justify all mankind DUE TO WHAT CHRIST DID, why do you negate that and say it is based upon what we do?

I'm not saying we don't have faith in Christ. We do. But our faith is due to Christ's faith.

By the way, we are justified by Christ's faith.

Gal 2:16 having perceived that a man is not being justified by works of
law, except alone through the faith of Christ Jesus, we also believe in
Christ Jesus that we may be justified by the faith of Christ and not by
works of law, seeing that by works of law shall no flesh at all be justified."

Clearly you don't believe Christ accomplished anything in His death, burial and resurrection. Rather, you believe salvation hinges on us rather than what He accomplished.
 
Old 01-09-2011, 08:56 AM
 
17,968 posts, read 12,460,663 times
Reputation: 989
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
The language which the Bible uses to describe the eternal prison where both fallen angels and unregenerate mankind will reside in separation from God, is descriptive. Human lanquage cannot adequately convey the conditions of hell. The Bible uses a number of different discriptions to emphatically emphasize that hell is not a place anyone wants to be. Listen. Figurative lanquage is not used to make a place seem worse than it is. It is instead used when words fall short of the mark. So you can be assured that the conditions in the lake of fire, whatever its true nature is, will be at least as bad as the Bible portrays it. But hell is not Dante's version of it. No one is going to have their skin flayed off them. I never read Dante, but I understand that he wrote something like that.

In hell, the unbeliever will be in a state of utter ruin and eternal uselessness. He will be in torment. I can't describe the nature of the place. But it is real, and it is eternal.
I am assured the lake of fire is death for all humans interred therein.
You say it is torment. Who am I to believe?

Mike, the darkness is outside of the millennial kingdom set up in Israel.

Mat 22:13 Then the king said to the servants, 'Binding his feet and hands, cast him out into outer darkness.' There shall be lamentation and gnashing of teeth."
Mat 25:30 and the useless slave cast out into outer darkness. there shall be lamentation and gnashing of teeth.

The above judgment occurs when Christ returns to set up His millennial reign. Those servants in Israel who are useless are cast out of Israel into darkness (which is not a physical darkness but a darkness away from the very glorious kingdom of Christ.

When Christ returns . . .

The Son of Mankind shall be dispatching His messengers, and they shall be culling out of His kingdom all the snares and those doing lawlessness, and they shall be casting them into a furnace of fire. There shall be lamentation and gnashing of teeth.
(Mat 13:41-42)

But that is not a literal furnace of fire. For 400+ years Israel was in a furnace of fire. It was not a literal furnace and there was no literal fire Israel went through. But God was taking the dross out of israel as one takes the dross out of gold. The furnace of fire for these jews is to have them live outside the glorious kingdom to live amongst the nations in servitude.
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