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Old 01-09-2011, 08:57 AM
 
Location: Florida
5,965 posts, read 5,599,872 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
Mike, since God has told us all mankind are going to be made righteous DUE TO WHAT CHRIST DID in Romans 5:18,19 and that God is going to justify all mankind DUE TO WHAT CHRIST DID, why do you negate that and say it is based upon what we do?

I'm not saying we don't have faith in Christ. We do. But our faith is due to Christ's faith.

By the way, we are justified by Christ's faith.

Gal 2:16 having perceived that a man is not being justified by works of
law, except alone through the faith of Christ Jesus, we also believe in
Christ Jesus that we may be justified by the faith of Christ and not by
works of law, seeing that by works of law shall no flesh at all be justified."

Clearly you don't believe Christ accomplished anything in His death, burial and resurrection. Rather, you believe salvation hinges on us rather than what He accomplished.
Or as Martin Zender would say, some have faith only in themselves (i.e. their DECISION) rather than faith in God.
It's as simple as that.

 
Old 01-09-2011, 09:23 AM
 
20,425 posts, read 15,786,814 times
Reputation: 7647
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
I cannot wrap my brain around this. The OT is replete with examples of God bringing judgment onto the children of Israel for their sins. Was God holding them accountable only for Adam's sin when He nearly wiped them out for worshipping the golden calf, for sacrificing their children to Molech, for continuously running after other idols, etc ? If God was only yawning at their sins the whole 4000 years from Adam to Christ, then why were the Israelites carried off into captivity on two separate occasions when their sins were at their height? And how often does it appear in the OT, "your sins have ....." I mean unless I'm seriously misunderstanding what Mike is trying to say here.
You have indeed misunderstood what I said. I will clarify.

First, the believers personal sins do result in divine discipline. (Prov 3:11-12; Heb 12:5-13; Rev 3:19-20). The believers sins are handled as a family matter. The believer cannot lose his salvation because he sins, or for any other reason.


I am referring specifically to the fact that with regard to what brought eternal condemnation to the entire human race, to what brought spiritual death (separation from God) and as a result of spiritual death, physical death, to all men, it was Adam's decision to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, that brought spiritual death to all men.

Listen. Adam was the federal head of the human race. Not Eve. Adam was created first. God built Eve out of one of Adam's ribs. Satan knew that he couldn't get to Adam directly, and so had to go through Eve to get to Adam.

Therefore, Romans 5:12 'Therefore, just as through one man (Adam), sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned.'

Romans 5:15 'But the free gift is not like the trangression. For if by the transgression of the one (Adam) the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many. 16] And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ. 18] So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men , even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. 19] For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so throught the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.'

When Adam sinned, he acquired a propensity to sin - an old sin nature. This sin nature resides in the cell structure of the body. It is genetic. And it is transmitted though the male's semen to his offspring. This is the reason why Jesus had to come into the world through a virgin birth. Because everyone who is born has a sin nature at the moment of birth, God imputes Adam's original sin to the old sin nature. This results in immediate spiritual death to everyone who is born. Long before a baby can commit even one personal sin, he is already spiritually dead - separated from God because of the imputation of Adam's original sin to his genetically acquired sin nature.

Everyone is born already condemned to eternal separation from God as a result of Adam's original sin. Not because of their own personal sins. You were born already condemned before you could even commit a personal sin.

Your personal sins were never held against you with regard to the issue of eternal condemnation and salvation. Your personal sins were instead, transferred to Jesus Christ on the cross and HE took the penalty for those sins.

For that reason, your personal sins are not an issue with regard to eternal salvation. Now, if you have been eternally saved through personal faith in Jesus Christ, you will be disciplined for your personal sins, but those sins were never the basis for the condemnation that came to you at the moment you were born.

Your personal sins as a believer are handled by the principle of 1 John 1:9. Because your personal sins as a believer were already judged at the cross, God forgives the sin when you simply name it to Him. 1 John 1:9 'If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Naming your sins to God the Father- rebounding from a state of carnality to the state of spirituality is essential if you as a believer are to learn, assimilate, metabolize, and apply Bible doctrine and have any spiritual growth.

Those who will, please go into the following link and learn about the mechanics of 'rebounding'. That is simply a technical term so don't trip over it. It refers to confession of sin.

Lesson 1 - Confession of Sin
 
Old 01-09-2011, 09:31 AM
 
37,754 posts, read 25,448,218 times
Reputation: 5871
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heartsong View Post
Or as Martin Zender would say, some have faith only in themselves (i.e. their DECISION) rather than faith in God.
It's as simple as that.
Belief in God is NOT a choice that anyone can make. It exists or it doesn't . . . and it has nothing to do with our intellectual pronouncements or decisions . . . those are intellectual preferences. They have no depth and can be altered by changed knowledge or circumstance. Belief in God (and there IS only one so there is no distinction to make) is an inner state of being and approach to life and others (epitomized by Christ). ALL else is vanity.
 
Old 01-09-2011, 09:53 AM
 
Location: Somewhere
6,370 posts, read 5,657,086 times
Reputation: 575
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
You have indeed misunderstood what I said. I will clarify.
Ever notice how often Mike needs to reply to others that we misunderstood what he is saying or that we "don't listen" etc..?

Quote:
...The believer cannot lose his salvation because he sins, or for any other reason.
Now Mike is preaching a license to sin.

Quote:
When Adam sinned, he acquired a propensity to sin...
Anyone else see the problem with that statement. What came first the chicken or the egg?


Quote:
This sin nature resides in the cell structure of the body...
I don't know of one verse that says the sin nature resides in the cell structure.

Quote:
Your personal sins were never held against you with regard to the issue of eternal condemnation and salvation.
Mat 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Now if SINS were never held against us with regard to the issue of salvation then why would our God tells exactly the opposite and tell us that Jesus shall SAVE us from our sins.
 
Old 01-09-2011, 11:00 AM
 
5,441 posts, read 4,700,563 times
Reputation: 1121
Quote:
Originally Posted by SC122 View Post
yes, it's evil the way such a 'supposedly' true doctrine can torture ppl..there are millions of ppl who have tortured themselves daily wondering if their loved ones were rotting in hell at the moment..or would be in the future.it's insane.it literally can drive someone crazy...
You can now surely see why Jesus said that some will only endure a little while, and then fall away because they become offended?

Mark 4
[16] And these are they likewise which are sown on stony ground; who, when they have heard the word, immediately receive it with gladness;
[17] And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word's sake, immediately they are offended.

Those who really stand for truth, which includes an eternal hell for the damned, will have their names cast out as being evil. Nothing can stand between a believer and His LORD -- including kinfolk.

Jesus said:

Matthew 10
[34] Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
[35] For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
[36] And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
[37] He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
[38] And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

Luke 12
[49] I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I if it be already kindled?
[50] But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished!
[51] Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:
[52] For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three.
[53] The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
 
Old 01-09-2011, 11:18 AM
 
970 posts, read 722,566 times
Reputation: 394
Quote:
Mike555:
Long before a baby can commit even one personal sin, he is already spiritually dead - separated from God because of the imputation of Adam's original sin to his genetically acquired sin nature.

Everyone is born already condemned to eternal separation from God as a result of Adam's original sin. Not because of their own personal sins. You were born already condemned before you could even commit a personal sin.

So a baby is spiritually dead when born and you reenforce this again by saying we are born condemned. This means if this same baby dies prematurely, it is simply out of luck and will burn forever, correct? Or does God cut the baby a break?

If God pardons then we have a problem. We have souls making it to heaven without being born again.

Plus, if He does pardon, at what age does he draw the line for the child?
 
Old 01-09-2011, 11:21 AM
 
20,425 posts, read 15,786,814 times
Reputation: 7647
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
Mike, since God has told us all mankind are going to be made righteous DUE TO WHAT CHRIST DID in Romans 5:18,19 and that God is going to justify all mankind DUE TO WHAT CHRIST DID, why do you negate that and say it is based upon what we do?
No, that passage does not say that all mankind is going to be made righteous. See below.

Quote:
I'm not saying we don't have faith in Christ. We do. But our faith is due to Christ's faith.

By the way, we are justified by Christ's faith.

Gal 2:16 having perceived that a man is not being justified by works of
law, except alone through the faith of Christ Jesus, we also believe in
Christ Jesus that we may be justified by the faith of Christ and not by
works of law, seeing that by works of law shall no flesh at all be justified."
Do you not understand what the above passage is saying? ''WE ALSO BELIEVE IN CHRIST JESUS THAT WE MAY BE JUSTIFIED. Because of the work of Jesus Christ on the cross, anyone who believes in Him is justified.

Quote:
Clearly you don't believe Christ accomplished anything in His death, burial and resurrection. Rather, you believe salvation hinges on us rather than what He accomplished.
Again, you do not understand the matter. Simply put, it is because of what Christ did on the cross, that when a person believes in Christ, he appropriates what Christ did on the cross. NO one is justified apart from a personal decision to believe in Christ. Christ's work on the cross was for the purpose of making justification possible. Justification is not applyed to anyone until they believe in Christ for salvation. Justification and therefore, salvation is contengent upon making a non-meritorious decision to place your faith in Christ.

Read and comprehend what the following passages say.

Acts 13:38 ''Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through Him forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you, 39] and through Him EVERYONE WHO BELIEVES IS MADE RIGHTEOUS (Justified). Now refer to this passage in this interlinear Bible.Acts 13:39 Biblos Interlinear Bible

Romans 4:4 'Now to the one who works, his wage is not reckoned as a favor, but as what is due. 5] But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness. Here it is in the Greek. Romans 4:5 Biblos Interlinear Bible The ungodly are justified at the point that they believe in Christ.

Gal 3:6 'Even so Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness. Galatians 3:6 Biblos Interlinear Bible

Because of what Jesus accomplished on the cross with reference to redemption, unlimited atonement, expiation, and propitiation, anyone who places his faith in Christ for salvation receives the imputation of God the Father's perfect righteousness and is declared justified. Additionally, the church-age believer is placed into union with Jesus Christ and therefore shares the righteousness of Christ.

Again, as the scriptures make abundantly clear, salvation is conditional on personal faith in Christ.

John 3:36 ''He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.

Salvation is a free gift which is received through faith in Christ.
 
Old 01-09-2011, 11:25 AM
 
1,838 posts, read 1,939,066 times
Reputation: 179
[quote=twin.spin;17323645]
Quote:
Originally Posted by jghorton View Post



The common starting point ... (if you read enough of them).... is:
  1. IMO ...it makes no sense
  2. IMO .... it's not fair
  3. IMO ...... therefore, it's not just
lets just turn this around a little bit

1-in your poinion-eternal hell makes perfect sense,now tell me through your own reasoning,without using scripture how?

2- IYO eternal tormant is fair-how an why?

3-IYO eternal torment = justice, what crime fits that puinishment,??
if your answer is not beleiving in Jesus,then there are millions who have never even heard of jesus,so explain how God is so irresponsible as to put people in such a position.
 
Old 01-09-2011, 11:28 AM
 
1,838 posts, read 1,939,066 times
Reputation: 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
To the contrary. Just as everyone comes to Christ through the gospel, so did Paul. He received the gospel directly from Jesus Himself on the Damascus road.

Much earlier, right after Jesus had been resurrected, He made a number of personal appearances. On one occasion, He appeared to over 500 people. And He gave the gospel concerning Himself.

Now however a person receives the gospel, though reading the Bible, or a tract, or from some person, or in the case of Saul and the people Jesus had earlier appeared to, that person must make a decision whether He wants to have a relationship with Christ. During the Millennium, Jesus Christ will be personally on the earth ruling from the throne of David. And there will be people who reject Him.

God had always known that Paul would respond to the gospel when Jesus appeared to Him in a vision. Another man in Saul's place might of believed in Jesus but still not have been willing to carry out the plan that God had for him. But God knew that Paul would for the most part be obedient to God's will for his life. He did undergo discipline for willfully disobeying God on an occasion or two.

And remember also, that the angels who rebelled against God, had been in the presence of God and still rebelled.

Both man and angel have volition. And God does not force anyone to believe in Him.
what about people that never hear the gospil or of Jesus,are they automatically condemnded or let of the hook for not knowing,if its the latter then most people would have been better off not knowing.
 
Old 01-09-2011, 11:43 AM
 
20,425 posts, read 15,786,814 times
Reputation: 7647
Quote:
Originally Posted by trettep View Post
Ever notice how often Mike needs to reply to others that we misunderstood what he is saying or that we "don't listen" etc..?
The poster said that he might have misunderstood me.

Quote:
Now Mike is preaching a license to sin.
You who are a universalist who believes that all men will be saved are now saying that the eternal security of the believer is a license to sin?



Quote:
Anyone else see the problem with that statement. What came first the chicken or the egg?
Adam was created perfect. He had no sin nature before he disobeyed God. God did not create the sin nature. It came into existence with Adam's first sin.



Quote:
I don't know of one verse that says the sin nature resides in the cell structure.
The old sin nature is referred to as the flesh (1 John 2:16). Again, this is why Jesus had to be born of a virgin. If Jesus had had a normal birth, then the sin nature would have been passed down to him through his father.

Quote:
Mat 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Now if SINS were never held against us with regard to the issue of salvation then why would our God tells exactly the opposite and tell us that Jesus shall SAVE us from our sins.

If God had imputed our personal sins to us for condemnation then they would have been held against us. But God chose to impute Adam's original sin to the entire human race and condemn the human race on that basis. And He set aside our personal sins until that time in history when Jesus came into the world and paid for those sins. And that is how Jesus saved us from our sins.

Adam's original sin was transferred to the entire human race for condemnation. Our personal sins were transferred to Jesus Christ for judgment.
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