U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
View Poll Results: Your opinion?
Jesus was a jew. 30 90.91%
No, he wasn't, he's God and therefore divine. 3 9.09%
Voters: 33. You may not vote on this poll

 
 
Old 01-10-2011, 04:45 PM
 
43 posts, read 40,115 times
Reputation: 21

Advertisements

In reference to the original post: The speaker seems to have been implying that Jesus being a Jew should effect the veracity of Jews. That's an ad hominem fallacy. If one member of a group demonstrates a trait it doesn't follow that the whole of the group does as well.

The politics of Palestine are a separate issue.

Also, is being human in this sense a requirement for being Jewish? As other posters have stated, matralinial decent from a Jew is a sufficient to qualify as a Jew. That implies humanity, both does not specifically require it.

In what sense do we use the term human with regard to Christ? Are we talking about a biologic term or a spiritual one? In either case, what qualifies? I've never heard a case be made for Jesus not being biologically human. If we take the term human as a spiritual one, does it preclude divinity?
Quick reply to this message

 
Old 01-10-2011, 05:20 PM
 
Location: Wherever women are
19,022 posts, read 24,705,989 times
Reputation: 11309
Ok, let's speak in biological terms.

An embryo is formed blah blah blah, you guys know the process.

For Jesus to be a descendant of David, the progeny has to be passed from David all the way down to Jesus, either via Joseph or Mary.

Progeny as in genes and chromosomes.

But the creed reads that "by the power of the Holy Spirit, he was born of the virgin Mary"

The Church continues to maintain that Mary is a virgin and I'm not denying that or my mother will kill me, to boot

And birth is clearly divine, it's not human on any level. Mary is just the vehicle to bring the offspring into the earth.

So there is no biological link of any sort. Unless you folks want to argue that the Holy Spirit is Jewish

If that were the case, Tony would be struck by a lightning right now for having a soft corner for the Palestinians.

It just does not add up. If I'm to be called a heretic or a gnostic for thinking logically, then I'm happy I don't live in the fourth century

I'm not convinced. I am not being a toffee-nose. What the creed says, the status of Mary, the nature of the Holy Spirit and the omnipotence of God does not leave any Jewish trace, except that God picked some random tribe to engineer the salvation.
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-10-2011, 05:37 PM
 
4,083 posts, read 4,300,609 times
Reputation: 806
Quote:
Originally Posted by ahigherway View Post
Here's an Orthodox Jew's perspective:
Questions and Answers

Enjoy!
Blessings,
brian
This is an ultra orthodox perspective they are an extreme minority in their views.

There is a difference in ultra orthodox and orthodox.
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-10-2011, 06:02 PM
 
4,083 posts, read 4,300,609 times
Reputation: 806
Quote:
Originally Posted by gabfest View Post
i wonder what if any would an Orthodox Jew would have to say on this matter; i don't think we have any representation here from them.

According to halacha - Jewish law: Who is a Jew?

Who is a Jew according to Halacha (Jewish Law)?

According to Jewish law, a child born to a Jewish mother or an adult who has converted to Judaism is considered a Jew; one does not have to reaffirm their Jewishness or practice any of the laws of the Torah to be Jewish. According to Reform Judaism, a person is a Jew if they were born to either a Jewish mother or a Jewish father. Also, Reform Judaism stresses the importance of being raised Jewish; if a child is born to Jewish parents and was not raised Jewish then the child is not considered Jewish. According to the Orthodox movement, the father’s religion and whether the person practices is immaterial. No affirmation or upbringing is needed, as long as the mother was Jewish.

Matrilineal descent determines religious status ie Jewishness.


Halakhic perspective: Who is a Jew? - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

According to the traditional Rabbinic view, which is maintained by all branches of Orthodox Judaism and Conservative Judaism today, only halakha can define who is or is not a Jew when a question of Jewish identity, lineage, or parentage arises about any person seeking to define themselves or claim that they are Jewish.
As a result, mere belief in the principles of Judaism does not make one a Jew. Similarly, non-adherence by a Jew to the 613 Mitzvot, or even formal conversion to another faith, does not make one lose one's Jewish status. Thus the immediate descendants of all female Jews (even apostates) are still considered to be Jews, as are those of all their female descendants. Even those descendants who are not aware they are Jews, or practice a faith other than Judaism, are defined by this perspective as Jews, as long as they come from an unbroken female line of descent. As a corollary, the children of a Jewish father and a non-Jewish mother are not considered to be Jews by halakha unless they formally convert, even if raised fully observant in the mitzvot.[41]
Those not born to a Jewish mother may become accepted as Jews by the Orthodox and Conservative communities through a formal process of conversion to Judaism in order to become "righteous converts" (Geirei tzedek—Hebrew: גירי צדק‎). In addition, halakha requires that the new convert commits himself to observance of its tenets; this is called Kabbalat Ol Mitzvot (Hebrew: קבלת עול מצוות‎), "Acceptance [of the] Yoke [of the] Commandments".
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-10-2011, 06:13 PM
 
2,979 posts, read 2,256,851 times
Reputation: 469
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazzymom View Post
According to halacha - Jewish law: Who is a Jew?

Who is a Jew according to Halacha (Jewish Law)?

According to Jewish law, a child born to a Jewish mother or an adult who has converted to Judaism is considered a Jew; one does not have to reaffirm their Jewishness or practice any of the laws of the Torah to be Jewish. According to Reform Judaism, a person is a Jew if they were born to either a Jewish mother or a Jewish father. Also, Reform Judaism stresses the importance of being raised Jewish; if a child is born to Jewish parents and was not raised Jewish then the child is not considered Jewish. According to the Orthodox movement, the father’s religion and whether the person practices is immaterial. No affirmation or upbringing is needed, as long as the mother was Jewish.

Matrilineal descent determines religious status ie Jewishness.


Halakhic perspective: Who is a Jew? - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

According to the traditional Rabbinic view, which is maintained by all branches of Orthodox Judaism and Conservative Judaism today, only halakha can define who is or is not a Jew when a question of Jewish identity, lineage, or parentage arises about any person seeking to define themselves or claim that they are Jewish.
As a result, mere belief in the principles of Judaism does not make one a Jew. Similarly, non-adherence by a Jew to the 613 Mitzvot, or even formal conversion to another faith, does not make one lose one's Jewish status. Thus the immediate descendants of all female Jews (even apostates) are still considered to be Jews, as are those of all their female descendants. Even those descendants who are not aware they are Jews, or practice a faith other than Judaism, are defined by this perspective as Jews, as long as they come from an unbroken female line of descent. As a corollary, the children of a Jewish father and a non-Jewish mother are not considered to be Jews by halakha unless they formally convert, even if raised fully observant in the mitzvot.[41]
Those not born to a Jewish mother may become accepted as Jews by the Orthodox and Conservative communities through a formal process of conversion to Judaism in order to become "righteous converts" (Geirei tzedek—Hebrew: גירי צדק‎). In addition, halakha requires that the new convert commits himself to observance of its tenets; this is called Kabbalat Ol Mitzvot (Hebrew: קבלת עול מצוות‎), "Acceptance [of the] Yoke [of the] Commandments".
thank you so much Jazzymom for yor reply.
Halakha - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
the Halakha is a collective body of laws; which i'am greatful too because it gives some leanancey just as Christianity does.
but i guess when i said Orthodox i must have meant the ones you classify as Ultra Orthodox.... because of their strict adherence to the Levitical Laws they are considered the Golden Standard.
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-10-2011, 06:52 PM
 
4,083 posts, read 4,300,609 times
Reputation: 806
Quote:
Originally Posted by gabfest View Post
thank you so much Jazzymom for yor reply.
Halakha - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
the Halakha is a collective body of laws; which i'am greatful too because it gives some leanancey just as Christianity does.
but i guess when i said Orthodox i must have meant the ones you classify as Ultra Orthodox.... because of their strict adherence to the Levitical Laws they are considered the Golden Standard.

They are not the golden standard. They are just strict in their adherence. Judaism has a range like Christianity does from the ultra orthodox to the liberal.

Christianity has a range from the evangelical/fundamentalist to the liberal.

Haredi Judaism
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Haredi Judaism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Haredi or Charedi/Chareidi Judaism is the most conservative form of Orthodox Judaism, often referred to as ultra-Orthodox.[1] A follower of Haredi Judaism is called a Haredi (Haredim in the plural).
Haredi Jews, like other Orthodox Jews, consider their belief system and religious practices to extend in an unbroken chain back to Moses and the giving of the Torah on Mount Sinai. As a result, they regard non-Orthodox, and to an extent Modern Orthodox, streams of Judaism to be deviations from authentic Judaism.[2] Haredi Judaism comprises a diversity of spiritual and cultural orientations, generally divided into Hasidic and Lithuanian-Yeshiva streams from Eastern Europe, and Oriental Sephardic Haredim. Its historical rejection of Jewish secularism distinguishes it from Western European derived Modern Orthodox Judaism.
The word Haredi (חֲרֵדִי), which originally was simply the Hebrew translation of Orthodox,[3][4][5] is derived from charada, which in this context (Orthodoxy) is interpreted as "one who trembles in awe of God";[6] the word itself means fear or anxiety.[7]
There are approximately 1.3 million Haredi Jews,[8] one of the fastest growing demographic sects in the world.[9]
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-10-2011, 07:07 PM
 
2,979 posts, read 2,256,851 times
Reputation: 469
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazzymom View Post
They are not the golden standard. They are just strict in their adherence. Judaism has a range like Christianity does from the ultra orthodox to the liberal.
Golden Standard can be considered opionated of course but these are the Jews that so many sects of Christianity has/was branched off
from... the Laws (Kosher living).


http://www.abu.nb.ca/Courses/NTIntro/LifeJ/LawJesus.htm

Last edited by gabfest; 01-10-2011 at 07:12 PM.. Reason: addenum
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-10-2011, 07:48 PM
 
4,083 posts, read 4,300,609 times
Reputation: 806
Quote:
Originally Posted by gabfest View Post
Golden Standard can be considered opionated of course but these are the Jews that so many sects of Christianity has/was branched off
from... the Laws (Kosher living).


Jesus and the Law

Hasidic Judaism - Ultra-Orthodox Jews - Hasidism

The Haredi movement originated in Eastern Europe in the 18th century. They are not the golden standard.
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-10-2011, 08:03 PM
 
2,979 posts, read 2,256,851 times
Reputation: 469
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazzymom View Post
Hasidic Judaism - Ultra-Orthodox Jews - Hasidism

The Haredi movement originated in Eastern Europe in the 18th century. They are not the golden standard.
thank you for your views.
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-10-2011, 08:12 PM
 
4,083 posts, read 4,300,609 times
Reputation: 806
Quote:
Originally Posted by gabfest View Post
thank you for your views.

to say one group in Judaism is the one that is the gold standard is like saying evangelical Christianity speaks for all Christianity.
Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


 
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:
Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2018, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top