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Old 01-09-2011, 02:11 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InsaneInDaMembrane View Post
You actually have that backwards.

I see that you REALLY believe the Jews had a religion that was NOT or NEVER influenced by the various peoples they came in contact with, huh?

Not sure if I did this before, but for a little homework, please take a look at Deuteronomy 32:7-9 and tell me what you think was going on there. For the sake of accuracy, may I suggest the RSV's version.

Then, keep in mind that a civilization existed in western Syria around the same time the Israelites emerged as a power in Canaan. Here's what their writings (Ugaritic Text) states:

KTU 1.1 IV 14 says:

sm . bny . yw . ilt

Translation below:


“The name of the son of god, Yahweh.”

Yahweh a son of who??? But I thought Yahweh was god himself and not the son of some other god?!?!?

Then while you're pondering that, explain to me which other gods the writer of Exodus (15:11) is referring to here:

Who is like You, O LORD, among the gods?
Who is like You, glorious in holiness,
Fearful in praises, doing wonders?

What gods were these if other gods supposedly did not/do not exist??? why a comparison?
Here is the passage in a more literal translation, the Concordant Literal:

"Remember the days of the eon; understand the years of generation after
generation. Ask your father, and he shall tell you, your elders, and they
shall say to you. When the Supreme gave the nations allotments, when He
parted the sons of Adam, He stationed the boundaries of the peoples
according to the number of the sons of El. For the portion of Yahweh is
His people; Jacob is the line of His allotment.
(Deu 32:7-9)

Where does it say Yahweh was a son of El?

You still have not absolutely proven that the Israelites stole their religion from the Babylonians. Where is your proof? You have none. No, not even a little proof. All you have is someone said so.
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Old 01-09-2011, 03:09 PM
 
Location: New York City
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
Here is the passage in a more literal translation, the Concordant Literal:

"Remember the days of the eon; understand the years of generation after
generation. Ask your father, and he shall tell you, your elders, and they
shall say to you. When the Supreme gave the nations allotments, when He
parted the sons of Adam, He stationed the boundaries of the peoples
according to the number of the sons of El. For the portion of Yahweh is
His people; Jacob is the line of His allotment.
(Deu 32:7-9)

Where does it say Yahweh was a son of El?

You still have not absolutely proven that the Israelites stole their religion from the Babylonians. Where is your proof? You have none. No, not even a little proof. All you have is someone said so.
You love to talk about "proof" when it is looking at you right in the face. *sigh*

Anyway, don't you notice that "the Supreme" (El Elyon) and "Yahweh" (the LORD) are two separate and distinct entities and that when the nations were divided according to the sons of El (Elyon), Yahweh's (as a son) portion was Jacob? This is CONSISTENT with the regional belief of the day which is what the writer of Exodus hints toward, in that, the supreme god of the region was believed to have SEVENTY sons and he divided the earth amongst those sons. Israel fell to Yahweh as HIS inheritance/portion. You don't inherit something from yourself. Now I leave you to spin what isn't there out of that.

Now ask yourself, why does Yahweh show up to Moses out of nowhere and introduces himself under a name NOT known to his ancestors? Was he finally assuming the responsibility bestowed upon him? It is at THIS point in time he begins to BECOME the god of the Israelites in Jewish theology, but as the video points out, Yahweh is later written into the earlier biblical accounts to fit the later idea that he was ALWAYS one in the same with El (the supreme).
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Old 01-09-2011, 03:18 PM
 
Location: New York City
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Please note that the OLDER Ugaritic Text reflects the concept of the day also - that yw/ywh/yahweh was a son of El (God). I am thinking that bears NO weight to you.
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Old 01-09-2011, 03:35 PM
 
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Again, you are wanting me to ask my self an improper question.

Where does it say in the conversation that His name is not known to his ancestors?

Now Moses said to the One, Elohim: Behold! When I am coming to the
sons of Israel, and I say to them, The Elohim of your fathers sends me to
you, then they will say to me, What about His name? What shall I say to
them? Then Elohim spoke to Moses: I shall come to be just as I am coming
to be. And He said: Thus shall you say to the sons of Israel, I-Shall-
Come-to-Be has sent me to you. And Elohim said further to Moses: Thus
shall you say to the sons of Israel, Yahweh, the Elohim of your fathers,
the Elohim of Abraham, the Elohim of Isaac and the Elohim of Jacob, has
sent me to you. This is My name for the eon, and this the remembrance of
Me for generation after generation. Go, and you will gather the elders of
the sons of Israel and say to them, Yahweh, the Elohim of your fathers,
appeared to me, the Elohim of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, saying, I have
noticed, yea noticed you and what is being done to you in Egypt.
(Exo 3:13-16)
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Old 01-09-2011, 03:38 PM
 
Location: New York City
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
Again, you are wanting me to ask my self an improper question.

Where does it say in the conversation that His name is not known to his ancestors?

Now Moses said to the One, Elohim: Behold! When I am coming to the
sons of Israel, and I say to them, The Elohim of your fathers sends me to
you, then they will say to me, What about His name? What shall I say to
them? Then Elohim spoke to Moses: I shall come to be just as I am coming
to be. And He said: Thus shall you say to the sons of Israel, I-Shall-
Come-to-Be has sent me to you. And Elohim said further to Moses: Thus
shall you say to the sons of Israel, Yahweh, the Elohim of your fathers,
the Elohim of Abraham, the Elohim of Isaac and the Elohim of Jacob, has
sent me to you. This is My name for the eon, and this the remembrance of
Me for generation after generation. Go, and you will gather the elders of
the sons of Israel and say to them, Yahweh, the Elohim of your fathers,
appeared to me, the Elohim of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, saying, I have
noticed, yea noticed you and what is being done to you in Egypt.
(Exo 3:13-16)
Please, answer my other questions first. You are skilled at deviating and picking up on minor points.

Thank you.
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Old 01-09-2011, 03:49 PM
 
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What is your other question?
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Old 01-09-2011, 03:57 PM
 
Location: New York City
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
What is your other question?
My mistake. That should have been, address my other points and question first. You skipped right past it to ask about eh second paragraph. Here it is again:

Quote:
Anyway, don't you notice that "the Supreme" (El Elyon) and "Yahweh" (the LORD) are two separate and distinct entities and that when the nations were divided according to the sons of El (Elyon), Yahweh's (as a son) portion was Jacob? This is CONSISTENT with the regional belief of the day which is what the writer of Exodus hints toward, in that, the supreme god of the region was believed to have SEVENTY sons and he divided the earth amongst those sons. Israel fell to Yahweh as HIS inheritance/portion. You don't inherit something from yourself. Now I leave you to spin what isn't there out of that.
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Old 01-09-2011, 07:08 PM
 
Location: New York City
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Perhaps I should put this quote in here to add some further info to the discussion:

Quote:
Chapter 10 of the Book of Genesis is commonly known as the "Table of Nations". It records 70 nations descended from Noah through his three sons, as divided at Babel. 26 nations represent the descendants of Shem, 30 nations represent the descendants of Ham, and 14 nations represent the descendants of Japheth.
Taken from: Book Of Genesis 5


Quote:
The Dead Sea Scrolls version of this *Deuteronomy 32:8-9) suggests that there were in fact 70 sons of God sent to rule over the 70 nations of the Earth. This idea of the 70 nations of Earth, each ruled over by one of the Elohim (sons of God) is also found in Ugaritic texts. The Arslan Tash inscription suggests that each of the 70 sons of El Elyon were bound to their people by a covenant. Thus as Crossan translates it:

"The Eternal One (`Olam) has made a covenant oath with us,
Asherah has made (a pact) with us.
And all the sons of El,
And the great council of all the Holy Ones (Qedesh).
With oaths of Heaven and Ancient Earth."
Taken from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canaanite_religion


70 sons, 70 nations??? Coincidence?
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Old 01-09-2011, 07:47 PM
 
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Insane, you wrote:
Quote:
Anyway, don't you notice that "the Supreme" (El Elyon) and "Yahweh" (the LORD) are two separate and distinct entities and that when the nations were divided according to the sons of El (Elyon), Yahweh's (as a son) portion was Jacob? This is CONSISTENT with the regional belief of the day which is what the writer of Exodus hints toward, in that, the supreme god of the region was believed to have SEVENTY sons and he divided the earth amongst those sons. Israel fell to Yahweh as HIS inheritance/portion. You don't inherit something from yourself. Now I leave you to spin what isn't there out of that.
Quote:
The Septuagint suggests a different reading of this. Rather than "sons of Israel" it suggests the "angelōn theou" or 'angels of God' and a few versions even have "huiōn theou" 'sons of God'. The Dead Sea Scrolls version of this suggests that there were in fact 70 sons of God sent to rule over the 70 nations of the Earth. This idea of the 70 nations of Earth, each ruled over by one of the Elohim (sons of God) is also found in Ugaritic texts. The Arslan Tash inscription suggests that each of the 70 sons of El Elyon were bound to their people by a covenant. Thus as Crossan translates it
"The Eternal One (`Olam) has made a covenant oath with us,
Asherah has made (a pact) with us.
And all the sons of El,
And the great council of all the Holy Ones (Qedesh).
With oaths of Heaven and Ancient Earth."
I went to your wiki link and copy and pasted the above which is what you originaly had.

The Concordant Literal O.T. has it thus:



Now I see what you are getting at.

Deu 32:8 When the Supreme gave the nations allotments, when He parted
the sons of Adam, He stationed the boundaries of the peoples according
to the number of the sons of El.

Of course "El" can also be "el" for "subjector" which the Septuatint translates "theos" or "subjector."

the judges and rulers of Israel were said to be El or el or elohim (to-subjectors)

Psa 82:6 I Myself have said:you are elohim, And sons of the Supreme are all of you."

Jesus quoted the above verse to the Jewish people in John 10:34. They too were supposed to be elohim/theon/subjectors.

God told Moses he is El/Theos/god to Pharaoh and Aaron his prophet.
Exo 7:1 Yahweh said to Moses: See, I appoint you as Elohim to Pharaoh; and Aaron, your brother, shall come to be your prophet.

But no one in their right mind would think Moses was now part of a pantheon nor the people of Israel.

Last edited by Eusebius; 01-09-2011 at 08:07 PM..
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Old 01-09-2011, 08:57 PM
 
Location: New York City
5,556 posts, read 6,739,388 times
Reputation: 1351
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
Insane, you wrote:



I went to your wiki link and copy and pasted the above which is what you originaly had.

The Concordant Literal O.T. has it thus:



Now I see what you are getting at.

Deu 32:8 When the Supreme gave the nations allotments, when He parted
the sons of Adam, He stationed the boundaries of the peoples according
to the number of the sons of El.

Of course "El" can also be "el" for "subjector" which the Septuatint translates "theos" or "subjector."

the judges and rulers of Israel were said to be El or el or elohim (to-subjectors)

Psa 82:6 I Myself have said:you are elohim, And sons of the Supreme are all of you."

Jesus quoted the above verse to the Jewish people in John 10:34. They too were supposed to be elohim/theon/subjectors.

God told Moses he is El/Theos/god to Pharaoh and Aaron his prophet.
Exo 7:1 Yahweh said to Moses: See, I appoint you as Elohim to Pharaoh; and Aaron, your brother, shall come to be your prophet.

But no one in their right mind would think Moses was now part of a pantheon nor the people of Israel.
I know this will be blasphemous to you to even consider, but what if Jesus was simply echoing a later monotheistic interpretation held by the Jews regarding Psalm 82? You see, Psalm 82 is consistent with the theology of the day - that is - El has sons and divides the nations amongst them and they are thus part of his divine court (council) . Now, when the Jews became a monotheistic people, the idea that Yahweh was standing in the council of the elohim (gods) would be considered preposterous and had to be re-interpreted. Claiming that these "gods" (elohim) were mere mortal men would make a better fit.

On a little side note, we find elements of this old theology even in the later book of Daniel when we read about the Prince of Persia, the spiritual power who was charged with ownership of that nation. In the same book, we read of Michael (a prototype of Jesus) being the one selected to guard over Israel. By this time, the "sons of god" had become the "angels of god" and this is reflected in the Greek Septuagint. This helped to take away the polytheistic implication.

Still another additional note. In the book of Judges we find the early Israelites acknowledging the validity of other gods when the delegates (under Jephthah) from Israel went to Ammon. They admitted that the Ammonite god Molech gave the Ammonites their lands while their god, Yahweh, gave them their borders. This admission would sound odd to later Jews and Christians today, but for THAT time, the admission was consistent with the theological ideas of the day.
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