U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 01-10-2011, 08:30 AM
 
Location: New York City
5,556 posts, read 6,710,060 times
Reputation: 1351

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
So the Ammonites had a false god they made up called Chemosh. Obviously a god of wood and stone or metal is no match for the true God of Israel for Jephtah destroyed those Ammonites.
This does not even begin to address the passage. No one asked whether or not Chemosh could match Yahweh or whether or not the Ammonites were defeated. The passage shows an Israelite acknowledgement of other VALID gods of another people while simultaneously upholding their god.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 01-10-2011, 08:54 AM
 
17,968 posts, read 12,427,722 times
Reputation: 989
Quote:
Originally Posted by InsaneInDaMembrane View Post
The passsage was NOT talking about the Jews. Yawheh was standing in the council of the gods in the heavenly divine court. I don't think you would believe he was hanging out with a bunch of earthly judges and having a conversation with them about their behavior. Again, the gods sitting together in council is CONSISTENT with the mythology of the ancient world.
Wrong. Here is the Plsam in all its glory:

Psa 82:1 An Asaphic Psalm Elohim is stationed in the congregation of El; Among the elohim is He judging:
Psa 82:2 How long shall you judge with iniquity And lift up the faces of the wicked? Interlude
Psa 82:3 Redress the poor and the orphan; To the humbled and destitute grant justice.
Psa 82:4 Deliver the poor and the needy; From the hand of the wicked, give rescue."
Psa 82:5 They do not know and are not understanding; In darkness are they walking about; All the foundations of the earth are slipping.
Psa 82:6 I Myself have said: you are elohim, And sons of the Supreme are all of you."
Psa 82:7 Yet you shall die like common humanity, And like any other of the chiefs you shall fall."
Psa 82:8 Do arise, O Elohim; do judge the earth; For it is You Yourself Who shall have the allotment of all the nations."

God's don't die. But those elohim or human "subjectors" who were the judges and leaders of Israel who were supposed to be judging (setting straight) the widow and fatherless, the poor and the needy in Israel were not doing their job. The word came to those humans that they were going to die so they better get their house in order.

This same word went to the Jews in Jesus' day. Jesus was speaking to the religious leaders, the judges.




Quote:
Jesus was just piping the theology of the day.
He was piping the theology of the Old Testament, the law and the prophets. What do you think? Do you think He should be piping Babylonians myths?


Quote:
The Jews had long since past [sic] the time when they believed god had sons that were born to him via a wife. At that time, such a notion would be considered blasphemous in much the same way they STILL believe today that god does not and CANNOT have a son despite what Christians say. You ignore the pagan myths about a god and their son but believe YOUR god has a son. Go figure.
God has many sons. There were tens of thousands of Jews in Christ's day who believe Jesus is the Son of God. Just because SOME Jews today cannot believe God has a Son does not disprove God has a Son. There are many thousands of Jews today called "Jews for Jesus" who believe Jesus is the Son of God. Oh your illogic gives me a headache!

Quote:
Again these are NT concepts. The new birth provided by Jesus brought men into a father-son relationship with god.
You mean, "with God"? Jesus never taught people to believe god but rather God.

Believers of the nations don't experience a new birth. National Israel does. Believers of the nations become a new creation in Christ.

Quote:
And you think this was ALWAYS the belief? The very idea of angels and demons who rule over various nations has its start in the ancient idea of gods who were in charge of the nations. The gods of the other nations just happened to become scandalized in Jewish theology, even rejected and discarded and non-existent.
That's because the One True God, Yahweh Elohim proved to the Israelites and pre-Israelite nation people such as Abraham etc. that He was the true creator of all. He didn't just say it but proved it.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-10-2011, 08:59 AM
 
17,968 posts, read 12,427,722 times
Reputation: 989
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius
So the Ammonites had a false god they made up called Chemosh. Obviously a god of wood and stone or metal is no match for the true God of Israel for Jephtah destroyed those Ammonites.
Quote:
Originally Posted by InsaneInDaMembrane View Post
This does not even begin to address the passage. No one asked whether or not Chemosh could match Yahweh or whether or not the Ammonites were defeated. The passage shows an Israelite acknowledgement of other VALID gods of another people while simultaneously upholding their god.
The Jews were always falling into idolatry and worshipping the gods of the nations. Then they'd come back to the One True God. It doesn't mean that Chemosh was a true god.

Falling down and worshipping a god of stone or wood or gold does not a true god make! Oh give me some aspirin!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-10-2011, 10:09 AM
 
Location: New York City
5,556 posts, read 6,710,060 times
Reputation: 1351
Eusebius, I would like you to take some time out to read this paper, but for the time being, PLEASE read this section as it is pertinent to what we are discussing. It's a PDF and may take some time to open. It is a critical and academic paper so it is not some cheap, non-objective piece. I read it a while back and I think it was actually written by a Christian, his name being Michael Heiser (read up on him here ----> MSH Homepage and Michael S. Heiser - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia).

The link I want you to read about Psalm 82 is this:

Please note the total breakdowns, the footnotes, the extensive knowledge of Hebrew and so on. The passage is treated extensively and stripped of Christian bias.

If you want to read more about these "sons of god," from the author go here:

http://www.michaelsheiser.com/diss%2...se%20chart.pdf

The key line in this written chapter is this line:

Quote:
As the great semitics scholar Cyrus Gordon pointed out over sixty years ago,
translating (elohim) as “rulers” or “judges” is an option that lacks validity, and
is an example of theologically “protecting” God.

You can read more here:

The Divine Council


and here:

Deuteronomy 32:8 and the Sons of God: Heiser

Last edited by InsaneInDaMembrane; 01-10-2011 at 10:19 AM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-10-2011, 11:41 AM
 
17,968 posts, read 12,427,722 times
Reputation: 989
And does Michael get all of his chart only from the Bible?

"The masterful subjectors shall speak to him from the midst
of the unseen; they will descend with his helpers; they will lie
with the uncircumcised, those slain by the sword" (Ezk.32:21)

The above is just one intance where el is used of subjectors who are
human and die and are slain by the sword. There are many other verses.

Also check out Kiel and Delitzsch on Judges 2:13

Jdg 2:13 yea, they forsake Yahweh, and do service to Baal and to Ashtaroth.

Baal was a form of sun/nature worship of the Canaanites.

Last edited by Eusebius; 01-10-2011 at 11:52 AM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-10-2011, 11:51 AM
 
Location: New York City
5,556 posts, read 6,710,060 times
Reputation: 1351
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
And does Michael get all of his chart only from the Bible?

There is your problem, Eusebius.

In the OT there are places where elohim is used to refer to men, however, please do NOT confuse where it is clearly speaking of divine beings in a heavenly council by twisting it to mean "men" in the case of Psalm 82. I think you are purposely being dishonest to, as the scholar stated, theologically "protect god." Yes, elohim can refer to men, but CONTEXTUALLY Psalm 82 is NOT one of those cases.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-10-2011, 11:54 AM
 
Location: New York City
5,556 posts, read 6,710,060 times
Reputation: 1351
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
The Jews were always falling into idolatry and worshipping the gods of the nations. Then they'd come back to the One True God. It doesn't mean that Chemosh was a true god.
So this was one of those moments when they had a brain fart and acknowledged Chemosh was a real god before they came to their senses to recognize he wasn't?

Quote:
Falling down and worshipping a god of stone or wood or gold does not a true god make! Oh give me some aspirin!
How do you define a "true god" or I should better ask, how does one define a "true god" WITHOUT using circular logic?

Last edited by InsaneInDaMembrane; 01-10-2011 at 12:06 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-10-2011, 12:06 PM
 
Location: New York City
5,556 posts, read 6,710,060 times
Reputation: 1351
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
And does Michael get all of his chart only from the Bible?

"The masterful subjectors shall speak to him from the midst
of the unseen; they will descend with his helpers; they will lie
with the uncircumcised, those slain by the sword" (Ezk.32:21)

The above is just one intance where el is used of subjectors who are
human and die and are slain by the sword. There are many other verses.

Also check out Kiel and Delitzsch on Judges 2:13

Jdg 2:13 yea, they forsake Yahweh, and do service to Baal and to Ashtaroth.

Baal was a form of sun/nature worship of the Canaanites.
I don't think you really get it, Eusebius. Please see the hand of a LATER editor re-writing the story to elevate Yahweh to supremacy while demeaning the status of other regional gods. The video makes a clear point of this. You are following an idea that what is written was a real time history. What is more likely is that you are reading back editing by different hands with different religious agendas.

Let me point you to the story of Josiah which the author of the video touches on. A 8 year boy acssends the throne of Judah and he is under the tutelage of the priest Hilkiah and the prophet Jeremiah (who may have been Hilkiah's son). By 20, he goes on a drastic reform campaign to expel the cult of Baal from Judah. Do you think he did this on his own or was he guided from behind the throne to wipe out a rival cult and set up his personal cult? This is the political side to the story. What you read in the bible is the story as told by the victors in the theological wars and running with it.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-10-2011, 12:25 PM
 
17,968 posts, read 12,427,722 times
Reputation: 989
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius
And does Michael get all of his chart only from the Bible?
Quote:
Originally Posted by InsaneInDaMembrane View Post
There is your problem, Eusebius.

In the OT there are places where elohim is used to refer to men, however, please do NOT confuse where it is clearly speaking of divine beings in a heavenly council by twisting it to mean "men" in the case of Psalm 82. I think you are purposely being dishonest to, as the scholar stated, theologically "protect god." Yes, elohim can refer to men, but CONTEXTUALLY Psalm 82 is NOT one of those cases.
I guess I have to ask it again:

And does Michael get all of his chart only from the Bible?

The only logical way to take Psalm 82 is that it is speaking of human subjectors.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-10-2011, 12:34 PM
 
17,968 posts, read 12,427,722 times
Reputation: 989
[quote]
Originally Posted by Eusebius
The Jews were always falling into idolatry and worshipping the gods of the nations. Then they'd come back to the One True God. It doesn't mean that Chemosh was a true god.

Quote:
So this was one of those moments when they had a brain fart and acknowledged Chemosh was a real god before they came to their senses to recognize he wasn't?
The Hebrew people always had a propensity to worship idols i.e. the golden calf right after coming out of Egypt. Chemosh was never a real God. God was always judging Israel for worshipping false gods. It's not like, all of a sudden, post Babylon they started worshipping idols.


Quote:
Quote:
Falling down and worshipping a god of stone or wood or gold does not a true god make! Oh give me some aspirin!
Quote:
How do you define a "true god" or I should better ask, how does one define a "true god" WITHOUT using circular logic?
A true God is One Who can create the universe like Yahweh did and which idols of wood, clay and metal could not.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2018, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top