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Old 01-11-2011, 06:28 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas R. View Post
Eusebius is making some interesting points I hadn't considered.

That said when I read the Old Testament I think I assumed what it meant was that every nation had its own "guardian angel" but the God of Israel was God. So in that case it would be like an editor named Ronald saying, "When I picked assignments I gave some to Percy, Phil, and Gypsy but Ronald has declared he will be mentor to Jake alone." So "El" is like "I", just a regular pronoun, and Yahweh is like the proper name. It might seem odd linguistically to switch from first-person to third-person to describe yourself, but I think that's how I took it at the time.

Now if "El" isn't just the word "God" and there really is something in Ugarit that refers to Yahweh as a son of El but not El this is problematic. I know of one inscription that says "Yw son of El" but I think there might be some debate as to whether "Yw" really is "Yahweh" as I only saw it mentioned in one source. Others think "Yahweh" is some Midianite God, although they have nothing to support that.
Hi Thomas, you posted an excellent post.
Here is a link to the Divine Names and Titles:
biblical studies: The Divine Names And Titles

I work for the linked Bible translating and publishing organization (yes, I'm biased).

I've been doing some research on the writings found in Ugarit. I'm leary of taking what those people wrote about all their gods and applying their ideas to the God of Israel.
Also, from the time of Cain and Abel there has been an antagonism between the line of the Seed of the woman and the non-line. The non-line was not privy to Yahweh's revealing Himself through the ages. Yahweh let the other nations go about their own way. Then all of a sudden Yahweh, in a most major way revealed Himself to Israel in Egypt and revealed to the Hebrews much much more about Himeself post Egypt till the Seed finally arrived. Yet all the while the nations were left in the dark. It seems the only time He revealed Himeslf was through the seed line to the nations such as to Nebuchadnezzar in Babylon etc.

Anyway, those are my thoughts as to why it is not always wise to go to the non-seed writings (Canaanites) about what they thought of Yahweh and impose those thoughts onto the writings of the seed line.
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Old 01-11-2011, 06:34 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius
Not from what I can tell either.
Tell me, would sources written by Satan worshippers concerning Jesus as be legit?

Quote:
Originally Posted by InsaneInDaMembrane View Post
I saw this coming. The arrogance NEVER ceases to eventually come to the top.
Insane, the question really has nothing to do with arrogance. I just want to know your thoughts as to my question. It relates to the topic.

Suppose some Satan worshippers said they personally spoke with Jesus and He supposedly told them Satan was His God. Would you believe them?
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Old 01-11-2011, 07:18 AM
 
Location: New York City
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
Insane, the question really has nothing to do with arrogance. I just want to know your thoughts as to my question. It relates to the topic.

Suppose some Satan worshippers said they personally spoke with Jesus and He supposedly told them Satan was His God. Would you believe them?
What in the world is a 'Satan worshiper???' Are these the people who did NOT worship Israel's god??? Did they disrespect Israel or their god, calling the Israelites 'devil worshipers?'

Last edited by InsaneInDaMembrane; 01-11-2011 at 07:41 AM..
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Old 01-11-2011, 07:55 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InsaneInDaMembrane View Post
What in the world is a 'Satan worshiper???'
www.churchofsatan.com



Quote:
Are these the people who did NOT worship Israel's god??? Did they disrespect Israel or their god, calling the Israelites 'devil worshipers?'
Obviously you are having a problem answering very easy and direct questions.

It's a very simple question Insane:

Suppose some Satan worshippers said they personally spoke with Jesus and He supposedly told them Satan was His God. Would you believe them?
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Old 01-11-2011, 09:26 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InsaneInDaMembrane View Post
Let's look at Psalm 82 a little more closely shall we plus a few other points.

1. If these judges are mere humans (amongst the Israelites) or the judges of Israel or even the people of Israel, please provide a moment in Israel's history when a group of men from their ranks was responsible for the ENTIRE earth? (See Psalm 82:8)
Asking God to judge the earth in 82:8 is not saying a group of men were responsible for the entire earth.

Quote:
2. Why should the earth "totter" because of their slacking in their jobs?
Where in the 82nd Psalm is it stated the earth totters due to their slacking in their jobs?




Quote:
3. Why are mere men sentenced to die like men? Isn't this clearly redundant?
Not really redundant.
One possibility is Adam Clark's commentary states:
"Psa 82:7 -
But ye shall die like men - כאדם keadam, “ye shall die like Adam,” who fell
from his high perfection and dignity as ye have done. Your high office
cannot secure you an immortality." (end quote)

Spirit beings don't die. Satan, a spirit being, when cast into the lake of fire and sulphur doesn't die from that.

Albert Barnes' Notes on the Bible states:
And fall like one of the princes - And die as one of the princes. The
idea in the word fall may be, perhaps, that they would die by the hand of
violence - or be cut down, as princes often are, e. g. in battle. The use of
the word princes here denotes that they would die as other persons of
exalted rank do; that is, that they were mortal as all people, high and low,
are - as common people are, and as princes are. Though they had names
- אל 'Êl, and אלהים 'Elohiym - that suggested the idea of divinity, yet such
appellations did not make any real change in their condition as people, and
as subject to the ordinary laws under which people live. Whatever name
they bore. it did not afford any security against death." (end quote)


Quote:
In adding a point about angels, the Hebrew word for "angels" is mal'akim and the passages in the bible that speaks of the "sons of god" is translated from the Hebrew Bene-elohim. Anyone else see a difference here?
Nothing is said of angels in Psalm 82 nor anything said of "sons of God."
In 82:6 it is stated "you are elohim" or "subjectors" and "sons of the Supreme." Adam was called a son of God.

Quote:
One only need look at the first two chapters of Job to see the council in action when the adversary (satan) shows up with them. These were NOT mal'akim who were meeting before god. These were the bene-elohim. Did I not hear that Job is the oldest or one of the oldest books in the Bible?
In Job the sons of Elohim could be leaders of the nations of that area or could be angelic beings. We are not told. But even if they were angelic beings this would not prove they were angelic beings in Psalm 82. Angelic beings don't die like men being spirit beings.

Quote:
If we now head back to the idea that the divine council are other gods, we need look no further than a mere 7 chapters ahead (chapter 89) in the book of Psalms. Here, the Jews have an exalted view of their god who is now identified with El. How is Yahweh extolled? Read this (Young's literal translation):



Quote:
and the heavens confess Thy wonders, O Jehovah, Thy faithfulness also [is] in an assembly of holy ones.
In the Scriptures "holy ones" or "saints" were the Israelites. Holy means "set apart". The Israelites were set apart from the rest of the nations to be God's special group.


Quote:
For who in the sky, Compareth himself to Jehovah? Is like to Jehovah among sons of the mighty [bene-elohim]?
Again, Psa 89:6 For who in the skies can be appraised with Yahweh? Who is like Yahweh among the sons of the elim?

Quote:
God is very terrible, In the secret counsel of His holy ones, And fearful over all surrounding Him. (Psalm 89:5-7)
Certainly this passage is NOT speaking about mortal men.
Again, "holy ones" are "saints" (saint just means "set apart") and are the Israelites who are set apart.

Quote:
All throughout the Psalms we find mention of other gods and Yahweh's comparison to them (at times).
[/quote]

Whether they are the gods (idols) of the nations or "elohim" i.e. judges or arbiters of Israel is what is important to note.

Quote:
Here's a list:

Psalm 86:8 - Among the gods there is none like you, O Yahweh; neither [are there any works] like your works.

Psalm 95:3 - For Yahweh is a great God, and a great King above all gods.

Psalm 96:4 - For Yahweh is great, and deserving of exceedingly great praise: he is
to be feared above all gods.

Psalm 97:7 - All who served images were put to shame; those who boasted in
mere idols; even all the gods bow down before him [Yahweh, see v. 5 preceding]

Psalm 97:9 - For you, O Yahweh, are Most High above all the earth: you are
exalted far above all gods.

Psalm 135:5 - For I know that Yahweh is great, and that our lord is above all
gods.

Psalm 136:2 - O give thanks to the God of gods: for his mercy endures for ever.
Adam Clarke's Commentary on the Bible states:
"Psa 136:2 -
The God of gods - לאדני האדנים ladonai haadonim. As adonai signifies
director, etc., it may apply here, not to idols, for God is not their god; but
to the priests and spiritual rulers; as Lord of lords may apply to kings and
magistrates, etc. He is God and ruler over all the rulers of the earth,
whether in things sacred or civil."


Quote:
Psalm 138:1 - I will praise you with my whole heart: before the gods will I sing praise to you.

Humans???
Of course humans. David was praising God before the elohim/judges/arbiters of Israel. Why would David have all sorts of idols (gods) and be in the midst of those idols praising the Supreme God/Elohim? Does that really make sense to you. What I see is you are grasping at straws.

Quote:
Now that the context of the ENTIRE book in relation to this topic is before us, please now see if we can place Psalm 82 in context now.

Thank you
Psalms 82:1-8 CLV An Asaphic Psalm Elohim is stationed in the congregation of El;
Among the elohim is He judging:
(2) How long shall you judge with iniquity
And lift up the faces of the wicked? Interlude
(3) Redress the poor and the orphan;
To the humbled and destitute grant justice.
(4) Deliver the poor and the needy;
From the hand of the wicked, give rescue."
(5) They do not know and are not understanding;
In darkness are they walking about;
All the foundations of the earth are slipping.
(6) I Myself have said: you are elohim,
And sons of the Supreme are all of you."
(7) Yet you shall die like common humanity,
And like any other of the chiefs you shall fall."
(8) Do arise, O Elohim; do judge the earth;
For it is You Yourself Who shall have the allotment of all the nations."

Jesus, when quoting Psalm 82:6 said it was pertaining to humans. Jesus was a Jew Who knew His Scriptures.

Spirit beings don't die.

God was judging those human judges in Israel for all the reasons given in the psalm.
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Old 01-11-2011, 09:34 AM
 
Location: New York City
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
www.churchofsatan.com





Obviously you are having a problem answering very easy and direct questions.

It's a very simple question Insane:

Suppose some Satan worshippers said they personally spoke with Jesus and He supposedly told them Satan was His God. Would you believe them?
Eusebius, I know where you want to go with this and I don't want to walk down that road of deviation from the REAL topic at hand. I know you want to establish that those ancient pagans had NO credibility in the Jewish world and that Jesus certainly would not be using THEIR interpretations of things. You are working your preconceived ideas into the course of history, that is, coming to the table already believing Jesus is god and/or son of god and thus perfect and can do no wrong. As a result, the pagans don't know what they are talking about and Jesus has it all correct.

Despite ALL of that it does NOT change the FACT of who is the focus of Psalm 82.
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Old 01-11-2011, 09:53 AM
 
Location: New York City
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
Asking God to judge the earth in 82:8 is not saying a group of men were responsible for the entire earth.
It stands to reason that the request for god to judge the EARTH is a result of the "sons of god" NOT doing their job. If human judges (of Israel) are the ones in focus, the EARTH would not be their concern. It would have been limited to Israel. Get it???



Quote:
Where in the 82nd Psalm is it stated the earth totters due to their slacking in their jobs?
See verse 5. The entire earth is stated to be off balanced because the sons of god were not doing their jobs. In other words, chaotic. You might want to follow the trend of thought, ok?


Quote:
Not really redundant.
One possibility is Adam Clark's commentary states:
"Psa 82:7 -
But ye shall die like men - כאדם keadam, “ye shall die like Adam,” who fell
from his high perfection and dignity as ye have done. Your high office
cannot secure you an immortality." (end quote)

Spirit beings don't die. Satan, a spirit being, when cast into the lake of fire and sulphur doesn't die from that.
Um...it does not mean physical death per se unless you are willing to admit that when god told Adam and Eve they would die for eating of the tree it ONLY meant physical death.

Quote:
Nothing is said of angels in Psalm 82 nor anything said of "sons of God."
In 82:6 it is stated "you are elohim" or "subjectors" and "sons of the Supreme." Adam was called a son of God.
*sigh*



Quote:
In Job the sons of Elohim could be leaders of the nations of that area or could be angelic beings. We are not told. But even if they were angelic beings this would not prove they were angelic beings in Psalm 82. Angelic beings don't die like men being spirit beings.
Again, physical death is NOT the issue here. It's a term for demotion, cast down (like Lucifer), forced to be stripped of their royalty, etc. In addition, you do not tell men they will die like men. What sense does that make?


Quote:
In the Scriptures "holy ones" or "saints" were the Israelites. Holy means "set apart". The Israelites were set apart from the rest of the nations to be God's special group.
Not always and what Israelites (living in the skies) could the Psalmist be referring to in Psalm 89:5-7?


Quote:
Again, Psa 89:6 For who in the skies can be appraised with Yahweh? Who is like Yahweh among the sons of the elim?



Again, "holy ones" are "saints" (saint just means "set apart") and are the Israelites who are set apart.
I think you know better, Eusebius. Stop being dishonest.

Quote:
Whether they are the gods (idols) of the nations or "elohim" i.e. judges or arbiters of Israel is what is important to note.
Those gods were believed to be REAL, physical beings in the heavens. They were later depicted as idols, but like Yahweh, they were made into idols. The Yahwehists rejected this action while we are not told the gods of the other nations rejected the practice amongst their adherents.



Quote:
Adam Clarke's Commentary on the Bible states:
"Psa 136:2 -
The God of gods - לאדני האדנים ladonai haadonim. As adonai signifies
director, etc., it may apply here, not to idols, for God is not their god; but
to the priests and spiritual rulers; as Lord of lords may apply to kings and
magistrates, etc. He is God and ruler over all the rulers of the earth,
whether in things sacred or civil."




Of course humans. David was praising God before the elohim/judges/arbiters of Israel. Why would David have all sorts of idols (gods) and be in the midst of those idols praising the Supreme God/Elohim? Does that really make sense to you. What I see is you are grasping at straws.



Psalms 82:1-8 CLV An Asaphic Psalm Elohim is stationed in the congregation of El;
Among the elohim is He judging:
(2) How long shall you judge with iniquity
And lift up the faces of the wicked? Interlude
(3) Redress the poor and the orphan;
To the humbled and destitute grant justice.
(4) Deliver the poor and the needy;
From the hand of the wicked, give rescue."
(5) They do not know and are not understanding;
In darkness are they walking about;
All the foundations of the earth are slipping.
(6) I Myself have said: you are elohim,
And sons of the Supreme are all of you."
(7) Yet you shall die like common humanity,
And like any other of the chiefs you shall fall."
(8) Do arise, O Elohim; do judge the earth;
For it is You Yourself Who shall have the allotment of all the nations."

Jesus, when quoting Psalm 82:6 said it was pertaining to humans. Jesus was a Jew Who knew His Scriptures.

Spirit beings don't die.

God was judging those human judges in Israel for all the reasons given in the psalm.
Again, you are going about trying to theological protect god. You are skipping all over the place, sidestepping and finding anything that will beat back the clear facts. I know it is hard for you to accept that the early Israelites were products of their environment and were henotheists (belief that other gods exists but that only ONE is set aside for worship and thus, subjectively greater than the other gods). From there they eventually saw their theology evolve into a more monotheistic approach where they believed only THEIR god was the only true and valid god out there and all others were to be rejected as false and non-existent. This is where you are jumping into the picture and trying to work 600 BCE (forward) back into 1500 BCE. No matter what you do, with that kind of working you will keep drawing the wrong conclusions.
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Old 01-11-2011, 03:24 PM
 
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I'm not trying to protect God at all. What is there to protect Him from?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius
Asking God to judge the earth in 82:8 is not saying a group of men were responsible for the entire earth.
Quote:
Insane replied:
It stands to reason that the request for god to judge the EARTH is a result of the "sons of god" NOT doing their job. If human judges (of Israel) are the ones in focus, the EARTH would not be their concern. It would have been limited to Israel. Get it???
I feel I have to restate this:
God judging the whole inhabited earth (if that is what the Psalm is saying) does not prove one bit that there were """gods""" in charge of the whole earth.

Psa 82:8 "Do arise, O Elohim; do judge the earth; For it is You Yourself Who shall have the allotment of all the nations."

It just does not logically follow that if A happens that therefore B must be.
A. God judges the earth, therefore:
B. there must be gods ruling the nations.

B does not logically follow A.

Judgment always begins at the house of God. When Christ returns He is going to judge Israel and its judges first. Then He is going to judge the nations as to how they treated His brethren. Only when Christ sets up the millennial kingdom will Israel be controlling the nations. Then the sons of Elohim, those humans Christ sets up in Israel will be ruling over the nations.

In the 82nd Psalm Israel was supposed to be a light of the nations. But they couldn't even judge righteously among themselves with their own human elohim. So the Psalmist asks the Supreme Elohim to judge the earth (or land? of Israel) to set things right for the poor and widow etc.
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Old 01-11-2011, 03:26 PM
 
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Quote:
Insane wrote:
Um...it does not mean physical death per se unless you are willing to admit that when god told Adam and Eve they would die for eating of the tree it ONLY meant physical death.
Of course God meant physical death as the curse for Adam and Eve. "To die shall you be dying" and then God showed them what that meant after they sinned in that they would work by the sweat of their brow till the returned to the soil. It was a process, not a death in a 24 hour period.
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Old 01-11-2011, 03:31 PM
 
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Quote:
Esuebius wrote:
In the Scriptures "holy ones" or "saints" were the Israelites. Holy means "set apart". The Israelites were set apart from the rest of the nations to be God's special group. Not always and what Israelites (living in the skies) could the Psalmist be referring to in Psalm 89:5-7?

Quote:
Insane replied:
Not always and what Israelites (living in the skies) could the Psalmist be referring to in Psalm 89:5-7?
Yes so. It is not about Israelites living in the skies. It is about Elohim coming into the congregation of El on the earth. Israel was the congregation of El.

Quote:
Eusebius wrote:
Again, Psa 89:6 For who in the skies can be appraised with Yahweh? Who is like Yahweh among the sons of the elim?



Again, "holy ones" are "saints" (saint just means "set apart") and are the Israelites who are set apart.
Quote:
Insane's reply:
I think you know better, Eusebius. Stop being dishonest.
I'm telling the truth.
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