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Old 01-12-2011, 03:26 AM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,388,193 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Mark 4:11 He told them, “The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you. But to those on the outside everything is said in parables
12 so that,“‘they may be ever seeing but never perceiving, and ever hearing but never understanding; otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!’"

Can anyone explain this to me from the eternal torment point of view?

Why would Jesus purposely tell parables so the masses would not understand and would not be forgiven?

Let us put 1+1 together and make 2. If one is not forgiven, ultimately they will end in eternal torment. And Jesus told the masses only parables so they would not understand and so they would not turn and be forgiven. Therefore it seems Jesus is purposely telling them parables so they are more likely to end up in an eternal hell... This doesn't seem to fit the behavior of the Savior of the World.

I'm trying to understand this... thanks if anyone can explain why Jesus would not simply speak clearly so that the masses would turn and be forgiven.

Romans 11:31. So they too have now become disobedient (and blind) in order that--->>>they too may now receive mercy as a result of God's mercy to you.

I think of it like this: You have a bunch of kids (kind of like millions) and you dote on one group for hundreds of years, and then they don't listen anymore and they think they are very special, more so than everybody on the planet, and they get rebellious and cold, so you "dump" them and give some love and information to your other group. So this new group has a lot of responsibility, which the old group doesn't have anymore.

God is merciful to the blind and holds people who know better accountable. It has nothing to do with hell. It has everything to do with mercy. The people who have the knowledge and power are the one's who will be judged more harshly. It was the Jews first and now the Gentiles.


Uh-oh?
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Old 01-12-2011, 07:10 AM
 
Location: On a road heaven bound !
10,290 posts, read 8,056,021 times
Reputation: 17784
Hi, Legoman


Mark 4:11-12
11. He told them, “The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you. But to those on the outside everything is said in parables
12. so that,“‘they may be ever seeing but never perceiving, and ever hearing but never understanding; otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!’"

I know this verse is difficult for some who holds to the teaching of universalism because it contradicts the teaching that God's mercy will forgive all eventually.....

God knows the heart of every human born the beginning to the end. Now I don't believe in the predestination teaching (nor ET, just so you know)..... but I do believe by faith God knows those who do and will serve Him from the depths of their heart..... Yes, "God desires all to be saved...." yet, even through this scripture we see not all will be saved.

Now I'm just throwing this out there for now..... going to read and study more on this deeper today...

As the scripture tells and teaches us that.....

" The heart is deceitful above all things,
And desperately wicked;
Who can know it?
I, the LORD, search the heart,
I test the mind,
Even to give every man according to his ways,
According to the fruit of his doings. (Jeremiah 17:9-10)

We truly can not trust our own reasoning (hearts)..... God is Spirit and those who walk in the spirit (born again) not the flesh, walk by faith believe regardless when the fleshes reasoning doesn't pan out, especially with this scripture !!!
Also.....
We believe God works by means, ordinary means, by which the Spirit works supernaturally, and especially sovereignly. Hearing the good news is a privilege, not a right. And that privilege is regularly abused by people who hear the plainest gospel presentations and reject them. And furthermore, being given "ears to hear" is a necessary gift to make the Word understood in the heart. The surface meaning of the text seems to imply (by the term "lest"="for fear that") God was afraid that if the people got a clearer message, they would turn from their wicked ways. Well, God isn't afraid of anything. And he certainly isn't one to miss his aim either in saving or damning.

Jesus' words are inseparable from both the context of the parable by which he is speaking, and the Isaiah passage he is quoting from. The Word is simply saying that God is sovereign as to what, and how much, and to what degree he lets people hear and understand his truth. If more of his hearers had been given more grace to understand the parables, they would have been savingly enabled. Instead, Jesus used the parables as a means of judgment. Additional light is withheld from them, the Spirit and the Word is held back sovereignly, and the Words of Life fall on deaf ears.

What condemns them? Their natural condition of unbelief.

We have to remember like it was mention God is God and He doesn't have too explain everything to us.
He does tell us.... and by faith I believe and trust God when He tells me,
Isaiah 55:8-9
8"For My thoughts are not your thoughts,
Nor are your ways My ways," declares the LORD.
9"For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
So are My ways higher than your ways
And My thoughts than your thoughts.

This why I believe we get into dangerous grounds when our logic, reasoning becomes what we believe and our ways rather then trusting God who is Spirit, look for those who will worship Him in truth and spirit, even when it doesn't make sense or disturbs our natural man !!

Blessings to you !
All is forgotten...

Last edited by Cyber Munchkin; 01-12-2011 at 07:38 AM..
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Old 01-12-2011, 07:20 AM
 
Location: Miami, FL
58,612 posts, read 32,015,814 times
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Jesus had many things to say, and wanted to say it all before they murdered Him. Speaking in parables kept his enemies from understanding His message too soon and killing him prematurely. He did not keep the truth from the common men and women so that they would not be saved.

Quote:
Jesus' words are inseparable from both the context of the parable by which he is speaking, and the Isaiah passage he is quoting from.
And inseparable from the rest of the Bible.
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Old 01-12-2011, 07:44 AM
 
351 posts, read 283,727 times
Reputation: 118
Hi Finn: Jesus did not speak in parables so they would not kill him to early. First he was under God's protection till the proper time when he would be " in the heart of the earth" which is surronded by mankind and unable to get away. Every other time, such as John 8:58 ,when he said before Abraham was, I AM. The jew around him knew exactly what he was claiming ,to be God himself, and they went to stone him for blasphamy but he was gone. The next verse said he hid himself and then passed in thier midst. They were all focused on him so he could not run away or just duck but he was just gone. He was protected till the proper time.

Jesus spoke in parables because as he said it was not given to them to understand --at this time. It is all part of God's plan to create man in his image and in the end all will understand.
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Old 01-12-2011, 07:49 AM
 
Location: Miami, FL
58,612 posts, read 32,015,814 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sschulz View Post
Jesus spoke in parables because as he said it was not given to them to understand --at this time.
Yes, at that time He did not want His enemies to understand everything He was saying.
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Old 01-12-2011, 07:55 AM
 
Location: On a road heaven bound !
10,290 posts, read 8,056,021 times
Reputation: 17784
Come on, let not this thread turn into a, UR, ET argument !!!

Can't there be ONE thread in this forum that people could have a conversation with each other with out having this constant battle of who is more spiritual and provoking individuals to the point of defending their belief ???
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Old 01-12-2011, 08:25 AM
 
Location: Canada
6,643 posts, read 4,006,854 times
Reputation: 386
Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Mark 4:11 He told them, “The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you. But to those on the outside everything is said in parables
12 so that,“‘they may be ever seeing but never perceiving, and ever hearing but never understanding; otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!’"

Can anyone explain this to me from the eternal torment point of view?

Why would Jesus purposely tell parables so the masses would not understand and would not be forgiven?

Let us put 1+1 together and make 2. If one is not forgiven, ultimately they will end in eternal torment. And Jesus told the masses only parables so they would not understand and so they would not turn and be forgiven. Therefore it seems Jesus is purposely telling them parables so they are more likely to end up in an eternal hell... This doesn't seem to fit the behavior of the Savior of the World.

I'm trying to understand this... thanks if anyone can explain why Jesus would not simply speak clearly so that the masses would turn and be forgiven.
I think there is a missunderstanding of what a parable is used for. It is not to hid the truth but to reveal the truth. How many times did the Scribes and Pharasees percieve what Jesus said in parables to be concerning themselves? They knew Jesus was talking about them in those parables, but their hard hearts would not listen to the truth thus they did not precieve nor understand. And the reason they did not precieve and understand was because they rejected Jesus and His teachings, if they had of done as His desciples did and ask Jesus to explian the parables they too would have seen and understood.

A parables is used to make a point CLEAR not unclear; However, a parable need one to teller to tell them what the POINT is. The scribes and Pharasees refused to go to Jesus to understand the point.

This is easily seen in that Jesus spoke in parables to ALL (and without a parable He opened not His mouth), but only to those who followed Him did He give an understanding. WHY? Because they sought Him out and ASKED Him.

Thus the parables made Jesus' point CLEAR.

Thus the Scibes and Pharasees seen and heard but did not precieve and understand because they refused Jesus and His words.
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Old 01-12-2011, 08:30 AM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,418,115 times
Reputation: 682
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyber Munchkin View Post
Hi, Legoman


Mark 4:11-12
11. He told them, “The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you. But to those on the outside everything is said in parables
12. so that,“‘they may be ever seeing but never perceiving, and ever hearing but never understanding; otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!’"

I know this verse is difficult for some who holds to the teaching of universalism because it contradicts the teaching that God's mercy will forgive all eventually.....

God knows the heart of every human born the beginning to the end. Now I don't believe in the predestination teaching (nor ET, just so you know)..... but I do believe by faith God knows those who do and will serve Him from the depths of their heart..... Yes, "God desires all to be saved...." yet, even through this scripture we see not all will be saved.

Now I'm just throwing this out there for now..... going to read and study more on this deeper today...

As the scripture tells and teaches us that.....

" The heart is deceitful above all things,
And desperately wicked;
Who can know it?
I, the LORD, search the heart,
I test the mind,
Even to give every man according to his ways,
According to the fruit of his doings. (Jeremiah 17:9-10)

We truly can not trust our own reasoning (hearts)..... God is Spirit and those who walk in the spirit (born again) not the flesh, walk by faith believe regardless when the fleshes reasoning doesn't pan out, especially with this scripture !!!
Also.....
We believe God works by means, ordinary means, by which the Spirit works supernaturally, and especially sovereignly. Hearing the good news is a privilege, not a right. And that privilege is regularly abused by people who hear the plainest gospel presentations and reject them. And furthermore, being given "ears to hear" is a necessary gift to make the Word understood in the heart. The surface meaning of the text seems to imply (by the term "lest"="for fear that") God was afraid that if the people got a clearer message, they would turn from their wicked ways. Well, God isn't afraid of anything. And he certainly isn't one to miss his aim either in saving or damning.

Jesus' words are inseparable from both the context of the parable by which he is speaking, and the Isaiah passage he is quoting from. The Word is simply saying that God is sovereign as to what, and how much, and to what degree he lets people hear and understand his truth. If more of his hearers had been given more grace to understand the parables, they would have been savingly enabled. Instead, Jesus used the parables as a means of judgment. Additional light is withheld from them, the Spirit and the Word is held back sovereignly, and the Words of Life fall on deaf ears.

What condemns them? Their natural condition of unbelief.

We have to remember like it was mention God is God and He doesn't have too explain everything to us.
He does tell us.... and by faith I believe and trust God when He tells me,
Isaiah 55:8-9
8"For My thoughts are not your thoughts,
Nor are your ways My ways," declares the LORD.
9"For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
So are My ways higher than your ways
And My thoughts than your thoughts.

This why I believe we get into dangerous grounds when our logic, reasoning becomes what we believe and our ways rather then trusting God who is Spirit, look for those who will worship Him in truth and spirit, even when it doesn't make sense or disturbs our natural man !!

Blessings to you !
All is forgotten...
Thankyou for your thoughts and clarification Cyber (Latte), I appreciate it. It seems you are still saying that God withheld understanding so that they would be damned, and that was His sovereign will - that they be judged into eternal damnation - by not letting them understand. This is dangerously close to "predestination to hell" AKA Calvinism, although I don't believe you are a Calvinist (AFAIK- I don't wish to suggest or put any words in your mouth).

For the record I don't believe this verse causes any trouble for the teaching of Christian universalism. I have a clear understanding from my perspective - it is as herefornow and AlabamaStorm pointed out: God binds people to disobedience so He can have mercy on them (Romans 11:30-32). God makes people blind so He can reveal more of His glorious nature when He heals them of their blindness (John 9:1-12). Specifically:

John 9:2 “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?” 3 “Neither this man nor his parents sinned,” said Jesus, but this happened so that the works of God might be displayed in him.

People are made blind so that the works of God might be displayed in them. It is amazing how God works. God was sovereign in letting this man be born blind so that His mighty works could be displayed. And so it is in all of us.

So in regards to the OP verse Mark 4:11-12, it was simply not their time to understand yet, but God will have mercy on them ultimately - so that the works of God might be displayed in them.

The point of the OP is trying to understand how those of ET (or ES/ED persuasion) understand that verse. I realize you said you are not ET (are you ES or ED?), but nonetheless what I read in your conclusion is that it was God's sovereign will that they not understand and be judged and thus damned to either seperation or annihilation. This is effective Calvinism - God chose people to be damned, and withheld information so they would be damned eternally. Personally that is the conclusion I would come to as well if I still believed in ET - it should drive people to Calvinism, or away from ET.

IMHO invoking the "His ways our higher than our ways" clause is simply rhetoric because the fact of the matter is that while we don't understand everything right now, we can understand some things and will eventually understand all things (God will bring us to a full knowledge of the truth). That verse (Isa 55:8-9) quite often is used to say "I don't understand it but I'm right" which is simply rhetoric. I understand why God would not want them to understand at that moment. It is because God is working something larger in which His full glory will be redeemed when He has mercy on them all at a later time.

Romans 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

Be well...
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Old 01-12-2011, 08:34 AM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,418,115 times
Reputation: 682
Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma View Post
I think there is a missunderstanding of what a parable is used for. It is not to hid the truth but to reveal the truth. How many times did the Scribes and Pharasees percieve what Jesus said in parables to be concerning themselves? They knew Jesus was talking about them in those parables, but their hard hearts would not listen to the truth thus they did not precieve nor understand. And the reason they did not precieve and understand was because they rejected Jesus and His teachings, if they had of done as His desciples did and ask Jesus to explian the parables they too would have seen and understood.

A parables is used to make a point CLEAR not unclear; However, a parable need one to teller to tell them what the POINT is. The scribes and Pharasees refused to go to Jesus to understand the point.

This is easily seen in that Jesus spoke in parables to ALL (and without a parable He opened not His mouth), but only to those who followed Him did He give an understanding. WHY? Because they sought Him out and ASKED Him.

Thus the parables made Jesus' point CLEAR.

Thus the Scibes and Pharasees seen and heard but did not precieve and understand because they refused Jesus and His words.
Hi Pneuma, hope you are well.

We disagree here because the way I read that scripture is that Jesus spoke in parables so that they would not perceive or understand. ie. it was NOT CLEAR.

Even His own disciples didn't understand until He explained it plain language - explaining the symbols. So it was NOT clear until Jesus clarified it in non-parable form.

Just how I see it.
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Old 01-12-2011, 08:44 AM
 
Location: The western periphery of Terra Australis
24,683 posts, read 43,336,263 times
Reputation: 11862
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
Matthew 13:12-14
This is why I speak to them in parables: To fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah:
“Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand."

Still the best motto I read:

"if you can't convince them .... confuse them"
So God's infinite intellect can't convince the puny human minds that he created that he exists? The best he can do is confuse them? I thought the devil was the father of lies and the deceiver, I don't think deceit is God's style.

I'd prefer to believe he has a grander plan, that he has not failed. Unfortunately I can't make the leap to UR .
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