U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 01-12-2011, 09:29 AM
 
Location: On a road heaven bound !
10,290 posts, read 8,092,538 times
Reputation: 17785

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Thankyou for your thoughts and clarification Cyber (Latte), I appreciate it. It seems you are still saying that God withheld understanding so that they would be damned, and that was His sovereign will - that they be judged into eternal damnation - by not letting them understand. This is dangerously close to "predestination to hell" AKA Calvinism, although I don't believe you are a Calvinist (AFAIK- I don't wish to suggest or put any words in your mouth).

For the record I don't believe this verse causes any trouble for the teaching of Christian universalism. I have a clear understanding from my perspective - it is as herefornow and AlabamaStorm pointed out: God binds people to disobedience so He can have mercy on them (Romans 11:30-32). God makes people blind so He can reveal more of His glorious nature when He heals them of their blindness (John 9:1-12). Specifically:

John 9:2 “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?” 3 “Neither this man nor his parents sinned,” said Jesus, but this happened so that the works of God might be displayed in him.

People are made blind so that the works of God might be displayed in them. It is amazing how God works. God was sovereign in letting this man be born blind so that His mighty works could be displayed. And so it is in all of us.

So in regards to the OP verse Mark 4:11-12, it was simply not their time to understand yet, but God will have mercy on them ultimately - so that the works of God might be displayed in them.

The point of the OP is trying to understand how those of ET (or ES/ED persuasion) understand that verse. I realize you said you are not ET (are you ES or ED?), but nonetheless what I read in your conclusion is that it was God's sovereign will that they not understand and be judged and thus damned to either seperation or annihilation. This is effective Calvinism - God chose people to be damned, and withheld information so they would be damned eternally. Personally that is the conclusion I would come to as well if I still believed in ET - it should drive people to Calvinism, or away from ET.

IMHO invoking the "His ways our higher than our ways" clause is simply rhetoric because the fact of the matter is that while we don't understand everything right now, we can understand some things and will eventually understand all things (God will bring us to a full knowledge of the truth). That verse (Isa 55:8-9) quite often is used to say "I don't understand it but I'm right" which is simply rhetoric. I understand why God would not want them to understand at that moment. It is because God is working something larger in which His full glory will be redeemed when He has mercy on them all at a later time.

Romans 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

Be well...
See I don't agree at all with your assessment of what I believe or understand and because you believe in ultimate reconciliation for all you will continue to condemn those which I really do pick up in your post.... about other's who do not hold to this teaching....

So I'm moving on, don't want to get into this who has the truth and who doesn't .....see ya !!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 01-12-2011, 09:36 AM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,452,474 times
Reputation: 683
Something pneuma wrote above struck me:

It is not to hide the truth, it is to reveal the truth.

God is revealing the truth here. This is bigger than just the parables that are recorded in the gospels. God is revealing everything - slowly. Revelation is a process. It takes time.

We all see through the glass darkly, fumbling around like blind men describing an elephant. We all see different things - but its the same thing - we just don't understand it all yet. Some see more than others, but ultimately all will see.

God is revealing things slowly to us - some at different times. The truth is in those parables. Ultimately God will clear it all up.

God does this so He can reveal His glory to us and we can see the full effect of things. We are going from 0% knowledge to 100% knowledge, and right now we probably aren't even at 1% yet.

So the parables do contain truth, but we need the key. They are not clear until we have the key. Yes we need to ask to understand - but we also need to have the desire to understand. I believe God will provide it in time.

JMHO.

So anyways, back to the verse in the OP: It was given to the apostles to understand, but it was not given to the masses to understand. Yet God desires all to come to a full knowledge of the truth. So I know that it will be given to them to understand eventually. You may not believe that, but I do.

Peace out.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-12-2011, 09:46 AM
 
Location: Canada
6,646 posts, read 4,041,584 times
Reputation: 387
Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Something pneuma wrote above struck me:

It is not to hide the truth, it is to reveal the truth.

God is revealing the truth here. This is bigger than just the parables that are recorded in the gospels. God is revealing everything - slowly. Revelation is a process. It takes time.

We all see through the glass darkly, fumbling around like blind men describing an elephant. We all see different things - but its the same thing - we just don't understand it all yet. Some see more than others, but ultimately all will see.

God is revealing things slowly to us - some at different times. The truth is in those parables. Ultimately God will clear it all up.

God does this so He can reveal His glory to us and we can see the full effect of things. We are going from 0% knowledge to 100% knowledge, and right now we probably aren't even at 1% yet.

So the parables do contain truth, but we need the key. They are not clear until we have the key. Yes we need to ask to understand - but we also need to have the desire to understand. I believe God will provide it in time.

JMHO.

So anyways, back to the verse in the OP: It was given to the apostles to understand, but it was not given to the masses to understand. Yet God desires all to come to a full knowledge of the truth. So I know that it will be given to them to understand eventually. You may not believe that, but I do.

Peace out.



Amen brother, everything written is for our UNDERSTANDING, seek and ye shall find, knock and it will be OPENED unto you.

Got to run, but will be back from time to time.

God bless.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-12-2011, 09:57 AM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,452,474 times
Reputation: 683
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
Yes, the enemies of Jesus had no interest in understanding them, so they didn't understand. Everyone who wants to understand them, will understand them.
But it is God who gives understanding. ... 'To you it has been given ... but to them I speak in parables..."
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-12-2011, 09:59 AM
 
Location: Somewhere
6,370 posts, read 5,673,013 times
Reputation: 575
Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Something pneuma wrote above struck me:

It is not to hide the truth, it is to reveal the truth.

God is revealing the truth here. This is bigger than just the parables that are recorded in the gospels. God is revealing everything - slowly. Revelation is a process. It takes time.

We all see through the glass darkly, fumbling around like blind men describing an elephant. We all see different things - but its the same thing - we just don't understand it all yet. Some see more than others, but ultimately all will see.

God is revealing things slowly to us - some at different times. The truth is in those parables. Ultimately God will clear it all up.

God does this so He can reveal His glory to us and we can see the full effect of things. We are going from 0% knowledge to 100% knowledge, and right now we probably aren't even at 1% yet.

So the parables do contain truth, but we need the key. They are not clear until we have the key. Yes we need to ask to understand - but we also need to have the desire to understand. I believe God will provide it in time.

JMHO.

So anyways, back to the verse in the OP: It was given to the apostles to understand, but it was not given to the masses to understand. Yet God desires all to come to a full knowledge of the truth. So I know that it will be given to them to understand eventually. You may not believe that, but I do.

Peace out.
It can't be precious knowledge if it is common knowledge. The speaking of the parables is the hiding part. The making known of the parables is the unhiding part.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-12-2011, 10:01 AM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,452,474 times
Reputation: 683
I did a quick search on "give understanding". Here are some of the scriptures I found:

Job 32:8 But it is the spirit in a person, the breath of the Almighty, that gives them understanding.

Psalm 119:73 Your hands made me and formed me;
give me understanding to learn your commands.

Proverbs 2:6 For the LORD gives wisdom; from his mouth come knowledge and understanding.

Col 1:9 For this reason, since the day we heard about you, we have not stopped praying for you. We continually ask God to fill you with the knowledge of his will through all the wisdom and understanding that the Spirit gives

1 John 5:20 We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true by being in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.

I believe God is sovereign in who understands and who does not - since He is the one who gives understanding.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-12-2011, 10:36 AM
 
Location: Florida
59,107 posts, read 32,417,370 times
Reputation: 9580
After Jesus had been crusified He had fulfilled his mission, and by then He had preached and said everything He came here to say. The masses, and especially His enemies, were not meant to undersand everything at the time of preaching, but when He departed, He left us His preachings along with the Holy Sprit so that anyone who wants to understand will understand. Today, there is no one who wants to understand but cannot. All one needs to do is ask for Christ to come into their lives, and at that point the Holy Spirit will arrive and help us understsand.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-12-2011, 10:36 AM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,452,474 times
Reputation: 683
Quote:
Originally Posted by trettep View Post
It can't be precious knowledge if it is common knowledge. The speaking of the parables is the hiding part. The making known of the parables is the unhiding part.


There are so many things that we have to first NOT understand so that we can then have full understanding LATER.

Disobedience/Obedience.
Evil/Good.
Hate/Love.
Blind/Revelation.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-12-2011, 11:34 AM
 
Location: Somewhere
6,370 posts, read 5,673,013 times
Reputation: 575
Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post


There are so many things that we have to first NOT understand so that we can then have full understanding LATER.

Disobedience/Obedience.
Evil/Good.
Hate/Love.
Blind/Revelation.
I agree.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-12-2011, 01:09 PM
 
Location: Canada
6,646 posts, read 4,041,584 times
Reputation: 387
Quote:
Originally Posted by trettep View Post
It can't be precious knowledge if it is common knowledge. The speaking of the parables is the hiding part. The making known of the parables is the unhiding part.
That is NOT according to scripture Paul.



A parable is not used to hide the truth a parable is used to illustrate truth. To say a parable is used to hide the truth is to change the meaning of a parable. Take a look.

3850 parabole { par-ab-ol-ay’}

from 3846; TDNT - 5:744,773; n f

AV - parable 46, figure 2, comparison 1, proverb 1; 50

GK - 4130 { parabolhv }

1) a placing of one thing by the side of another, juxtaposition, as of ships in battle
2) metaph.
2a) a comparing, comparison of one thing with another, likeness, similitude
2b) an example by which a doctrine or precept is illustrated
2c) a narrative, fictitious but agreeable to the laws and usages of human life, by which either the duties of men or the things of God, particularly the nature and history of God’s kingdom are figuratively portrayed
2d) a parable: an earthly story with a heavenly meaning
3) a pithy and instructive saying, involving some likeness or comparison and having preceptive or admonitory force
3a) an aphorism, a maxim
4) a proverb
5) an act by which one exposes himself or his possessions to danger, a venture, a risk

3850. parabolhvparaboáleµ, par-ab-ol-ay´; from 3846; a similitude (“parable”), i.e. (symbol.) fictitious narrative (of common life conveying a mor.), apothegm or adage:— comparison, figure, parable, proverb.
par·a·ble (p
file:///C:/Users/Scott/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image001.gif (broken link)
r
file:///C:/Users/Scott/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image002.gif (broken link)

file:///C:/Users/Scott/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image003.gif (broken link)
-b
file:///C:/Users/Scott/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image003.gif (broken link)
l)
n.
A simple story illustrating a moral or religious lesson.


[Middle English, from Old French, from Late Latin parabola, from Greek parabol
file:///C:/Users/Scott/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image004.gif (broken link)
, from paraballein, to compare : para-, beside; see para-1 + ballein, to throw; see gwel
file:///C:/Users/Scott/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image003.gif (broken link)
- in Indo-European roots.]

The word "parable" comes from the Greek παραβολή (parabolē), meaning "comparison, illustration, analogy",[3] the name given by Greek rhetoricians to any fictive illustration in the form of a brief narrative. Later it came to mean a fictitious narrative, generally referring to something that might naturally occur, by which spiritual and moral matters might be conveyed.[4] A parable is a short tale that illustrates universaltruth, one of the simplest of narratives. It sketches a setting, describes an action, and shows the results. It often involves a character facing a moral dilemma, or making a questionable decision and then suffering the consequences.

par·a·ble
ˈpćrəbəlShow Spelled[par-uh-buhl]
file:///C:/Users/Scott/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image005.gif (broken link)
Show IPA
–noun
1.
a short allegorical story designed to illustrate or teach some truth, religious principle, or moral lesson.
2.
a statement or comment that conveys a meaning indirectly by the use of comparison, analogy, or the like.


Origin:
1275–1325; ME parabil < LL parabola comparison, parable, word < Gk parabolḗ comparison, equiv. to para- para-1 + bolḗ a throwing

So why did those who heard Jesus speak not understand? Verse 15 tells us.

For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed;

Read the parable in context.



10And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? 11He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. 12For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath. 13Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. 14And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: 15For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Now what is a parable used for? Is it to hide the truth or is it to reveal a truth that was kept secret from the foundation of the world.


All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them: 35That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world

A parable is a revelation of a truth that was once hidden, but is now being made known.

So as I have said a parable is put forth for a CLEAR understanding and is not something HIDDEN as you believe.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2018, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top