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Old 01-11-2011, 05:43 PM
 
5,431 posts, read 4,671,268 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
I tire of this lie of CHOICE . . . born of psychological ignorance and false "precepts and doctrines of men." There is no choice about what we do or do not actually believe . . . as opposed to what we intellectually express a preference for believing. If any of the promoters of this lie about choice can establish that they are capable of CHOOSING to believe something they do NOT actually believe . . . I would like them to step forward and announce this remarkable accomplishment. Psychological ignorance is so depressing . . . but retaining ancient ignorance, superstitions and cultural anachronisms is even worse.
Joshua 24
[14] Now therefore fear the LORD, and serve him in sincerity and in truth: and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the flood, and in Egypt; and serve ye the LORD.
[15] And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

Yes, serving God is a choice -- and I'm sure many think it's evil because we hold to the truth of eternal torment for those who die in their sins.
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Old 01-11-2011, 06:17 PM
 
17,968 posts, read 12,449,437 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scgraham View Post
Joshua 24
[14] Now therefore fear the LORD, and serve him in sincerity and in truth: and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the flood, and in Egypt; and serve ye the LORD.
[15] And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

Yes, serving God is a choice -- and I'm sure many think it's evil because we hold to the truth of eternal torment for those who die in their sins.
scgraham, those Israelites really thought they could serve the Lord but you need to read further:

Jos 24:19 And Joshua said unto the people, `You are not able to serve Yahweh, for an Elohim most holy He [is]; a zealous El He [is]; He does not bear with your transgression and with your sins.
aised with Yahweh? Who is like Yahweh among the sons of the elim?

Joshua was right. They were a stiff necked people and were not able to serve God.

It will not be till God replaces their stoney heart and replaces it with a heart of flesh and He writes His law on their hearts that they will be able to serve the Lord. All they were doing was wicked boasting.
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Old 01-11-2011, 06:27 PM
 
Location: East Coast
30,279 posts, read 20,017,000 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scgraham View Post
Joshua 24
[14] Now therefore fear the LORD, and serve him in sincerity and in truth: and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the flood, and in Egypt; and serve ye the LORD.
[15] And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

Yes, serving God is a choice -- and I'm sure many think it's evil because we hold to the truth of eternal torment for those who die in their sins.
God was teaching them the principle of Sowing and reaping, the undiserning mind see's it as God laying down the law, with his finger wagging, majoring on the consequences of disobedience and sin.The reason the undiscerning mind does this is because he dwells on the fear of the consequences of disobedience and sin. You hold to no truth but what is wriiten in ink if you believe you chose to serve Jesus,you are numbered with the Israelites whose minds are dull,and to this day when Moses is read(the scriptures), a veil covers their hearts. 2 Cor 3

You couldn't find a New Covenant scripture then, that tells us we chose to serve Jesus ?.

The believer would never think of saying such a thing.
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Old 01-11-2011, 07:38 PM
 
37,594 posts, read 25,288,180 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scgraham View Post
Joshua 24
[14] Now therefore fear the LORD, and serve him in sincerity and in truth: and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the flood, and in Egypt; and serve ye the LORD.
[15] And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

Yes, serving God is a choice -- and I'm sure many think it's evil because we hold to the truth of eternal torment for those who die in their sins.
You are talking about a superficial choice to proclaim belief and do what you think is serving in ways that are consistent with your proclamations. That is serving a preference . . . NOT an actual inner BELIEF. IF you have a choice . . . it is just an intellectual preference. What you actually believe is internal and not under your intellectual control. If you think it is under your control . . . prove it to yourself by choosing to believe something you currently do not actually believe. It cannot be done. God has no interest in such shallow superficial proclamations of intellectual belief. He is only concerned with actual "Believe ON/INTO" Christ and His Holy Spirit within. Only the Father can call you to that.
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Old 01-11-2011, 07:41 PM
 
Location: East Coast
30,279 posts, read 20,017,000 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
You are talking about a superficial choice to proclaim belief and do what you think is serving in ways that are consistent with your proclamations. That is serving a preference . . . NOT an actual inner BELIEF. IF you have a choice . . . it is just an intellectual preference. What you actually believe is internal and not under your intellectual control. If you think it is under your control . . . prove it to yourself by choosing to believe something you currently do not actually believe. It cannot be done. God has no interest in such shallow superficial proclamations of intellectual belief. He is only concerned with actual "Believe ON/INTO" Christ and His Holy Spirit within. Only the Father can call you to that.
Wonderful answer !!!!!!!!!!!!
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Old 01-11-2011, 08:06 PM
 
Location: Katonah, NY
21,199 posts, read 20,153,066 times
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I suppose if you already believe in God - you could either choose to serve him or not. But believing in God is not a choice. If I was a liar or a hypocrite - I could say that I believe in God. I could choose to do that. However, in my heart of hearts, I cannot do that. I'm not sure what is out there - if anything is. For me to say anything else would make me someone that I could not stand to be.
For me, this is the equivalent of telling someone that you love them when you really don't. Just like you can't choose who you fall in love with - you also cannot choose what you believe.
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Old 01-11-2011, 10:38 PM
 
2,526 posts, read 2,316,236 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scgraham View Post
Joshua 24
[14] Now therefore fear the LORD, and serve him in sincerity and in truth: and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the flood, and in Egypt; and serve ye the LORD.
[15] And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

Yes, serving God is a choice -- and I'm sure many think it's evil because we hold to the truth of eternal torment for those who die in their sins.
The choice given was not between Jehovah and a pagan god, but rather between two pagan gods. That's the only choice the flesh is capable of making. It has no ability to do good, at least not without divine intervention:

Jer 13:23 "Can the Ethiopian change his skin Or the leopard his spots? Then you also can do good Who are accustomed to doing evil.

The question raised by Jeremiah was rhetorical BTW...the obvious answer is no, they cannot change or choose to do that which is right on their own. It requires a change of nature (a rebirth of the Spirit) that only Christ can give.
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Old 01-12-2011, 07:36 AM
 
Location: Somewhere
6,370 posts, read 5,635,039 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scgraham View Post
Joshua 24
[14] Now therefore fear the LORD, and serve him in sincerity and in truth: and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the flood, and in Egypt; and serve ye the LORD.
[15] And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

Yes, serving God is a choice -- and I'm sure many think it's evil because we hold to the truth of eternal torment for those who die in their sins.
God told them to choose and we learned that they wouldn't - Hence God showed us that we needed a New Covenant.
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Old 01-12-2011, 07:47 AM
 
5,925 posts, read 5,688,799 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scgraham View Post

Yes, serving God is a choice -- and I'm sure many think it's evil because we hold to the truth of eternal torment for those who die in their sins.
There is a nature to things. Certainly you came to a point where you chose, everyone will. Belief or disbelief in eternal torment neither saves you or damns you.

The nature of your choice is right here.


1Jn 4:19 We love him,because he first loved us.
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Old 01-12-2011, 10:10 AM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,412,485 times
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It seems that this concept of 'choice' almost grows to have a mythical power that is even greater than God himself. You can choose to do this or choose to do that. Sure you can. But there is always a reason or cause - something that made you make that choice.

A choice is simply a selection between 2 or more alternatives. It is a preference. If the selection isn't there, you cannot make a choice. There is no mythical power to do anything we want simply because we can "choose".

Like others have already pointed out, our choices are severely limited.

We choose to love God BECAUSE He loved us first.
We cannot choose to do good unless something changes in our nature to CAUSE us to become good.
In the same way a leopard cannot choose to change its spots.

We simply cannot choose to believe any old thing without also having a change in nature that would cause the belief to be a true belief. Some people may believe the moon is made of green cheese, but I cannot choose to believe that, because I don't believe it. Ergo belief is not choice. (Excellent point on that one mystic)

Desire is another thing that is really not a choice. I don't like raspberries. So I don't choose to eat them. But I cannot choose to like raspberries - I simply cannot will it myself unless something changes my nature.
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