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Old 01-12-2011, 11:31 AM
 
Location: East Coast
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I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed. For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope thati the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.

All thoughts welcome

What is clear to me is whatever creation it refers to will be liberated and brought in the the glorious freedom of the children of God.
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Old 01-12-2011, 12:04 PM
 
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The entire creation was subject to vanity.

Rom 8:22 For we are aware that the entire creation is groaning and travailing together until now.

I believe that anything that can groan and travail is what makes up the entire creation.

And every created being will enter into the glorious freedom of the children of God.
Which meant at the moment the entire creation is not freed yet. But when the children of God are freed from sin and death into life and incorruption then eventually the rest of the creation will be freed into that freedom as well.

That's my take on it anyway. But I could be right.
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Old 01-12-2011, 12:12 PM
 
Location: East Coast
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
The entire creation was subject to vanity.

Rom 8:22 For we are aware that the entire creation is groaning and travailing together until now.

I believe that anything that can groan and travail is what makes up the entire creation.

And every created being will enter into the glorious freedom of the children of God.
Which meant at the moment the entire creation is not freed yet. But when the children of God are freed from sin and death into life and incorruption then eventually the rest of the creation will be freed into that freedom as well.

That's my take on it anyway. But I could be right.
Thanks Eusebius

I'm hoping something wonderful comes to light in this thread.

Where is this liberation going to take place , heaven , earth ?. I'm leaning towards within us, right here on earth.Maybe not in our lifetime though ?
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Old 01-12-2011, 12:40 PM
 
Location: Vancouver, BC
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I believe that all men will ultimately be brought into harmony with God. All sin and error will finally be eradicated from God's universe - but the time will depend to a great extent, upon the wills and desires of men.
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Old 01-12-2011, 12:58 PM
 
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I believe this is such an important thing. To me it speaks of the meaning of life. It really does. That we are here to learn. That we were subjected to something (This life, this darkness, this constrast of love and non-love.) We were subjected to this futility, this vanity, for a purpose. ALL of creation, not only mankind, but the animals, the earth itself, nature, the environment, every single thing in creation. All of it. We are learning through contrast and we (ALL of creation) are in this together. We may not realize it now, but we will.

Look at this: God IS LOVE.

LOVE.

When creation pulls away from their Creator, they are pulling away from love because what is God? Love. When that happens, non-love starts in on the destruction. Non-Love leads to destruction. Non-Love trickles down and permeates all facets of life. From the tiniest little thing to the largest thing. THIS is what we are to learn. As individuals and as a WHOLE. Again, we are ALL in this together. Our actions and thoughts affect so much more than we think.

I mean the scope of it is so unfathomably complex. Something as simple as a wrong THOUGHT can lead to a wrong action. That action can lead to another wrong action... and snowball from there. It will lead to complete destruction until LOVE steps in and overcomes it. (And it WILL. In every situation, LOVE will eventually CONQUER. Even in situations long dead, long gone from this world. All wrongs will be made right, I firmly believe.) This is happening every second of the day in all corners of the globe in everything that we do. We are all walking this contrast.


We are learning (ANd will CONTINUE TO LEARN) an unbelievable amount in regards to what LOVE is. (What GOD is) and what He is not.

The sons of God, I believe refer to mankind. When mankind as a whole finally learns the absolute destructive nature of non-love and the absolute POWER of LOVE which will ALWAYS, ALWAYS be able to OVERCOME non-love (in infinite situations) then the glory is starting to be revealed. When mankind learns just how weak and impotent non-love is in the PRESENCE of LOVE.

Love CONQUERS ALL. That is what we are learning.

When we do not LOVE the earth, we poison the earth callously, our greed, our selfishness... ends up destroying the earth, and ends up in the process destroying ourselves.

We are to be stewards of the earth. Are we good stewards?
Look around... what do you think?
What will it take for mankind to learn what He needs to learn..
Will it go so far as to the point of not having a drop of clean water left on this earth? Will it go as far to the point of utter and complete nuclear annihilation?

Look at how much suffering there is from man, to animals, to this earth. All around... suffering.
Because we are ignorant.
We are still learning.

Why are the animals afraid of us?
Why do you think?

I firmly believe God's plan is perfect. I completely get it, that Creation must be subjected to this futility... to this contrast... so that we will CLING To GOD, (cling to LOVE) for eternity. Because in the end (of this futility) when it is all over, we will all stand hand in hand and look upon what caused so much destruction. And we will see how LOVE overcame that weakness. Then and only THEN will we understand that LOVE is the most powerful thing in existence. And that it ALWAYS WINS. It ALWAYS overcomes. Non-Love has NO CHANCE. That there is nothing more powerful than LOVE. And we will see non-love (sin) for what it was. NOTHING. WEAK. IMPOTENT. THE DESTROYER.

If we were born in some perfect world, we would never know what we had. And there would always be the possibility of it going wrong.

This life IS the possiblity of it ALL GOING WRONG. We are EXHAUSTING what is NOT love so it NEVER enters our minds again. We are taking non-love and we are wringing every last bit of experience OUT of it... so that one day when we have completely WORN IT OUT... we will finally SEE IT for what it is. The pathetic, weak, little thing that it is. It is nothing.

Sin = non-love.
That's it.

I know some don't care too much about things on earth because they think God will whisk them away and create a new earth one day.
But what if... God creates a new earth by way of His children, finally understanding that non-love has already been defeated? That all we must do is believe it and live it and have trust in HIM that it is true? What if God is creating a new earth, by way of His children FINALLY having their entire being infused with LOVE for God, for each other, and for ALL of Creation? The animals would no longer have anything to fear.
Nothing would ever hurt or destroy again.... ever.

Perhaps... creation is groaning, standing on tiptoe, waiting for us to finally realize these things.

Or... maybe makind will end up destroying itself completely first.
I really don't know. I see both as a possiblity.
But regardless, nothing is impossible with God.
Whichever way it turns out... we can have full faith in LOVE conquering.
WE can have full faith.. that what we thought was "the end" was actually just our begininning. Together.

Love God with all of your heart... (This command... was given to us for a reason. God wants us to love Him (for OUR sake, not His) and isn't this command helping PUSH us to SEE HIM clearly so that we CAN love Him with all of our heart, mind and soul?? This command isn't because God is some freak ego-maniac! "You must love me... RAHHHH!!!" It's because He wants us to SEE HIM CLEARLY. When we see Him CLEARLY, WE WILL ABSOLUTELY WITHOUT A DOUBT love him with ALL of our heart, ALL of our soul and ALL of our mind. If we don't currently love Him this way, it's because he's trying to tell us that we are not seeing Him clearly YET. He wants us, ALL of us to SEE HIM. God is LOVE.) This command is so beautiful. Because as HE reveals Himself, our love for Him grows...
One day, ALL of us will love Him and CLING to Him.
Because we will finally SEE Him for who He is.


There are just things I think about. If you don't see it this way, that's totally cool. I'm not trying to push my perspective on anyone just sharing, is all.

peace...I've rambled enough.
sparrow
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Old 01-12-2011, 01:00 PM
 
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Attention Forum Members: If you don't want to read through my long post above, please just refer to SisterKat's post below for the gist:

Quote:
Originally Posted by SisterKat View Post
I believe that all men will ultimately be brought into harmony with God. All sin and error will finally be eradicated from God's universe - but the time will depend to a great extent, upon the wills and desires of men.
I wish I had the gift of being simple and precise.
Instead of the curse of a rambling rambler who can't seem to just "get on with it already, what the heck are you trying to say??!"
haha.
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Old 01-12-2011, 01:27 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SisterKat View Post
I believe that all men will ultimately be brought into harmony with God. All sin and error will finally be eradicated from God's universe - but the time will depend to a great extent, upon the wills and desires of men.
And will it be up to the wills and desires of men to decide when they will stand before the great white throne? I can just imagine Christ on the throne twiddling His thumbs and exclaiming in disgust---I wish I never gave free will to those humans! Where are they! I have a judgment to do!
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Old 01-12-2011, 01:34 PM
 
Location: Vancouver, BC
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
And will it be up to the wills and desires of men to decide when they will stand before the great white throne? I can just imagine Christ on the throne twiddling His thumbs and exclaiming in disgust---I wish I never gave free will to those humans! Where are they! I have a judgment to do!
Every single day is judgement day!
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Old 01-12-2011, 02:03 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SisterKat View Post
Every single day is judgement day!
So are you saying you are not in the book of life?
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Old 01-12-2011, 02:22 PM
 
Location: Vancouver, BC
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
So are you saying you are not in the book of life?
Of course I am. I am a big time follower of Jesus and what he taught us. I believe that if we follow the commandments, specifically the most important one that our lives here on Earth will be that much better. It is God's law and we shall reap what we so until we pay the last farthing and I truly believe we experience the consequences of our actions HERE on Earth as if we have not been forgiven all of our sins we shall continue to reap on the other side. I believe in more than one judgement. Not just one biggie! Every day is judgement day until we find our final resting place after the final judgement.

If we truly listen to the important message from Jesus.... our transgressions are greatly minimized and we shall reap a much higher reward - after we have paid our last farthing.

Thanks be to God for Jesus, who opened that door!
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