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Old 01-12-2011, 03:19 PM
 
Location: Italy
6,387 posts, read 5,122,060 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma View Post

Godonly did this AFTER Adams disobedience, God just gave them over to what they desired.
I don't think Adam "desired" to be condemned.. Rather, God knew what would happen to Adam in the garden. That explains why Jesus is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
I think God's plan (referring to what happened due to the disobedience) was to condemn all in order to justify all. It's He who has mercy on whomever He chooses.

Know what I mean?

Blessings,
brian

 
Old 01-12-2011, 04:04 PM
 
Location: Canada
6,643 posts, read 4,007,589 times
Reputation: 386
Quote:
Originally Posted by ahigherway View Post
I don't think Adam "desired" to be condemned.. Rather, God knew what would happen to Adam in the garden. That explains why Jesus is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
I think God's plan (referring to what happened due to the disobedience) was to condemn all in order to justify all. It's He who has mercy on whomever He chooses.

Know what I mean?

Blessings,
brian
Ya many beleive as you do brother, I however disagree.

Gods plan to make man in His image and likeness has NOTHING to do with disobedience. Disobedience is the way of man, there is a way that seemeth right unto a man but the end thereof are the ways of death. Gods ways are not our ways.

What are mans ways? Death

So it should go without saying Gods ways have NOTHING to do with death.

The lamb slain from the foundation of the world is not talking about the OLD world, which we live in, it is talking about the NEW world we are to live in.

Jesus was NOT slain until about 2000 yrs. ago, and it was from that time the foundation of the NEW world was brought in.

Jesus death is the foundation of the NEW and it was this foundation He as the lamb was slain from.

If He died before the foundation of the world as we know it brother He died before we were sinners and the scriptures tell us He died for us WHILE we were yet sinners.
 
Old 01-12-2011, 04:18 PM
 
Location: Italy
6,387 posts, read 5,122,060 times
Reputation: 866
Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma View Post
Ya many beleive as you do brother, I however disagree.

Gods plan to make man in His image and likeness has NOTHING to do with disobedience. Disobedience is the way of man, there is a way that seemeth right unto a man but the end thereof are the ways of death. Gods ways are not our ways.

What are mans ways? Death

So it should go without saying Gods ways have NOTHING to do with death.

The lamb slain from the foundation of the world is not talking about the OLD world, which we live in, it is talking about the NEW world we are to live in.

Jesus was NOT slain until about 2000 yrs. ago, and it was from that time the foundation of the NEW world was brought in.

Jesus death is the foundation of the NEW and it was this foundation He as the lamb was slain from.

If He died before the foundation of the world as we know it brother He died before we were sinners and the scriptures tell us He died for us WHILE we were yet sinners.
It is true, as you say, that He died for us while we were sinners. And it is true that He died for us all 2,000 years ago.
However, I believe God's plan of salvation was "drawn up" long before man was created.. That's part of His "higher thoughts."

But I see a marvellous design in God's decision to condemn all mankind at the fall of Adam. Indeed, if salvation depended upon man's choice, then he would have something to glory of.
But he cannot, because it was God who was reconciling the world to Himself in Christ. The merit is His, all His and only His.

At any rate... I do like your term "the foundation of the NEW."

Blessings pneuma!
Brian
 
Old 01-12-2011, 04:26 PM
 
Location: Somewhere
6,370 posts, read 5,640,779 times
Reputation: 575
Quote:
Originally Posted by ahigherway View Post
Yes and no. Let me attempt to explain:

God made man to be condemned through Adam 1. That means no choice on our part, it was His "decree."

But that was not the end. God then made man to be Justified and made Alive thought Adam 2. That also means no choice on our part, it was His decree. (Eph. 2 describes what God did to man while he was still in sin.)

We read that all things have been put under Jesus' feet, but we don't see things that way (yet). God has not imparted faith to all mankind yet, even though all are justified. But when the word is preached, He mixes it with faith in those He chooses at that moment.

So the "acts" of sin still exist, yes. But the power, extent and reign of sin has been cancelled in Jesus Christ. The difference between believers and unbelievers is this, that one knows that they are justified, the others not yet.

We also read that no man can call Jesus "Lord" except by the influence of the Holy Ghost. So here too, we see that it must be God who changes man's understanding of who He is (and who he himself is too) through His Spirit. It is all God's work, none of ours. That's why it's called "grace."

I hope this helps...

Blessings,
brian
I'm going to tell you why some of this is wrong and I hope you take it constructively. God never justified or made man to be alive through Adam. It is true that we are condemned along with Adam for we are members of his body. But from a PERSPECTIVE ones needs to understand that there will ONLY be one Person saved. Notice what I'm saying - a PERSPECTIVE.

That person is Jesus Christ, so we must become members of His Body in order to be saved. This perspective is important because the BEING (mind, sentiment, attitude, personality) that is saved is ONLY that one which belongs to Christ. That is who HE is. He owns (copyright) to that BEING. He gives us of Himself (that Being) and by that Being in us, it puts down sin in OUR OWN Flesh thereby destroying sin in our very body by the means of HIS Being IN us. So there is no justification of OUR Being at all. In fact, what the scriptures are showing is a complete annhilation of OUR BEING is underway.

So the purpose of Jesus was to destroy the works of sin. He ONLY does this by eliminating the fulfillment of the LUSTs of our Flesh. He does this by putting His BEING into our flesh in which at that point He will destroy our sins. Now His BEING may be coming into each of us in different measure thereby this process is ongoing. We are putting Him on. And through revelation and knowledge of Him we shall continue to put Him on. Wrath will prevail to make pathway for collecting proper knowledge until we put on what is necessary for our complete salvation. In His Words is that Knowledge and is that BEING and when we eat those words (By Faith) we retain and exhibit who He is such that He is now in Us whereby we are no longer in ourselves for the former BEING (the old man) is now gone.

By this manner is our Lord going to save all of us in due time.
 
Old 01-12-2011, 04:30 PM
 
Location: Somewhere
6,370 posts, read 5,640,779 times
Reputation: 575
Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma View Post
Brian, sin did NOT come by way of the law, sin was in the world BEFORE the law but was not imputed unto men until the law
Yes, the only way one can die is by sin. Therefore, those that died even between Adam and the Law, died because they were in the body of Adam (as even now we do). Yet the law came and caused the offence to abound more so. So now on top of the condemnation of death we have in Adam (and if we have that condemnation then we have the sin that comes with it), we have now sinned more by means of the Law.
 
Old 01-12-2011, 04:32 PM
 
Location: Canada
6,643 posts, read 4,007,589 times
Reputation: 386
Quote:
Originally Posted by ahigherway View Post
It is true, as you say, that He died for us while we were sinners. And it is true that He died for us all 2,000 years ago.
However, I believe God's plan of salvation was "drawn up" long before man was created.. That's part of His "higher thoughts."

But I see a marvellous design in God's decision to condemn all mankind at the fall of Adam. Indeed, if salvation depended upon man's choice, then he would have something to glory of.
But he cannot, because it was God who was reconciling the world to Himself in Christ. The merit is His, all His and only His.

At any rate... I do like your term "the foundation of the NEW."

Blessings pneuma!
Brian
Brian, God love you but it was not in Gods plan to sacrifice His son, a sacrifice is something one does not want to do but is something that was required. If it was something God desired then it would not be a sacrifice to Him.

I wrote this awhile back, hope it sheds some light.


God did NOT want to sacrifice His son
, but because man would NOT obey His voice God had to do that which He NEVER intended in the first place.


KJV
Jer 7:22 For I spoke not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices: Jer 7:23 But this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people: and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well unto you.


First thing I would point out is God gave the Law written in stone BEFORE He gave the commands concerning burnt offerings and sacrifices.

In the day God brought the people out of Egypt He gave commands for us to OBEY HIS VOICE but the people would not listen to OBEY HIS VOICE so God commanded burnt offerings and sacrifices for the people.

If the people had OBEYED HIS VOICE then there would have been no need of burnt offerings and sacrifices. But because of the peoples disobedience God instituted/made provision/weaved a way for man to come before Him in repentance by burnt offerings and sacrifices.

We see this very principal brought out in

1 Samuel 15:22
22 And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.


God has far more delight in our obedience then He has in us having to offer up burnt offerings and sacrifices for our sins. If we OBEY Him we have no need of sacrifices.







Now we know that the sacrifices given in the OT are a shadow of Christ sacrifice for us. Thus, God says that when He brought the people out of Egypt (God taking man from the dust of the earth OUTSIDE the garden[Egypt] and putting man into the garden) He did NOT command concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices.

Why?

Because He commanded them to Obey my voice.

The sacrifice and offerings only came into play AFTER the disobedience of man. Thus, He says to obey is better than sacrifice.

God did NOT want to sacrifice His son, He wanted obedience, but because man disobeyed His voice, He gave them a means of coming before Him through sacrifice.


Hosea 6:6
6 For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.

God did NOT desire sacrifice; therefore God did not desire the sacrifice of His son.

Psalm 40:6
6 Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required.

Again it say sacrifice and offering God did NOT desire, but it even go farther and says that they were NOT required.

If God planned all along for Jesus to be sacrificed for us why do scriptures say that offerings were NOT required?

Because if man had of obeyed His voice sacrifices and offering would NOT have been required.


Psalm 51:16
16 For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.

Again we see the same thing, God did NOT desire sacrifice.

Hebrews 10:5-6
5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: 6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sinthou hast had no pleasure.

Jesus said it Himself, sacrifice and offering God did NOT want, and He(God) found NO pleasure in them.

Now we all know that God had pleasure in the outcome of Christ sacrifice, so what is Jesus saying here? Is He not saying that God had NO pleasure in the need of sacrificing His son.

Why did He(God) have NO pleasure in sacrificing His son?

Because He wanted obedience and NOT sacrifice.
 
Old 01-12-2011, 04:35 PM
 
Location: Canada
6,643 posts, read 4,007,589 times
Reputation: 386
Quote:
Originally Posted by trettep View Post
I'm going to tell you why some of this is wrong and I hope you take it constructively. God never justified or made man to be alive through Adam. It is true that we are condemned along with Adam for we are members of his body. But from a PERSPECTIVE ones needs to understand that there will ONLY be one Person saved. Notice what I'm saying - a PERSPECTIVE.

That person is Jesus Christ, so we must become members of His Body in order to be saved. This perspective is important because the BEING (mind, sentiment, attitude, personality) that is saved is ONLY that one which belongs to Christ. That is who HE is. He owns (copyright) to that BEING. He gives us of Himself (that Being) and by that Being in us, it puts down sin in OUR OWN Flesh thereby destroying sin in our very body by the means of HIS Being IN us. So there is no justification of OUR Being at all. In fact, what the scriptures are showing is a complete annhilation of OUR BEING is underway.

So the purpose of Jesus was to destroy the works of sin. He ONLY does this by eliminating the fulfillment of the LUSTs of our Flesh. He does this by putting His BEING into our flesh in which at that point He will destroy our sins. Now His BEING may be coming into each of us in different measure thereby this process is ongoing. We are putting Him on. And through revelation and knowledge of Him we shall continue to put Him on. Wrath will prevail to make pathway for collecting proper knowledge until we put on what is necessary for our complete salvation. In His Words is that Knowledge and is that BEING and when we eat those words (By Faith) we retain and exhibit who He is such that He is now in Us whereby we are no longer in ourselves for the former BEING (the old man) is now gone.

By this manner is our Lord going to save all of us in due time.

 
Old 01-12-2011, 04:42 PM
 
Location: Florida
5,965 posts, read 5,584,006 times
Reputation: 1584
No, sin will not last forever. The curse has been and will continue to be reversed. The "fall" was not by accident, nor is Salvation by chance.
 
Old 01-12-2011, 04:49 PM
 
Location: Italy
6,387 posts, read 5,122,060 times
Reputation: 866
Quote:
Originally Posted by trettep View Post
I'm going to tell you why some of this is wrong and I hope you take it constructively. God never justified or made man to be alive through Adam. It is true that we are condemned along with Adam for we are members of his body. But from a PERSPECTIVE ones needs to understand that there will ONLY be one Person saved. Notice what I'm saying - a PERSPECTIVE.

That person is Jesus Christ, so we must become members of His Body in order to be saved. This perspective is important because the BEING (mind, sentiment, attitude, personality) that is saved is ONLY that one which belongs to Christ. That is who HE is. He owns (copyright) to that BEING. He gives us of Himself (that Being) and by that Being in us, it puts down sin in OUR OWN Flesh thereby destroying sin in our very body by the means of HIS Being IN us. So there is no justification of OUR Being at all. In fact, what the scriptures are showing is a complete annhilation of OUR BEING is underway.

So the purpose of Jesus was to destroy the works of sin. He ONLY does this by eliminating the fulfillment of the LUSTs of our Flesh. He does this by putting His BEING into our flesh in which at that point He will destroy our sins. Now His BEING may be coming into each of us in different measure thereby this process is ongoing. We are putting Him on. And through revelation and knowledge of Him we shall continue to put Him on. Wrath will prevail to make pathway for collecting proper knowledge until we put on what is necessary for our complete salvation. In His Words is that Knowledge and is that BEING and when we eat those words (By Faith) we retain and exhibit who He is such that He is now in Us whereby we are no longer in ourselves for the former BEING (the old man) is now gone.

By this manner is our Lord going to save all of us in due time.
Hi trettep,
As I read your post, I felt that in many things we are quite in agreement. I agree that we are being changed, some more than others at this time, but that it is a process.

I think where I see things a bit differently is in the "supernatural" event that happened at Calvary. I read quite clearly in Romans 5, that God has passed justification to all mankind because of the obedience of Jesus Christ. This, to me, is why we talk about grace. No one can say that they "did" something to merit justification, since God did it to all across the board!
Salvation, on the other hand, aisi, is something that happens to people one-by-one. God calls some now, giving them faith. And that faith becomes truly "theirs," and they are able to therefore believe. And this belief is accounted to them for righteousness.
But the faith they have is not their own, it was given to them.

So the justification of all mankind, imo, has already occurred, to believer and unbeliever alike. We are all "in." And the merit goes to God alone.

Salvation is still occurring, to individuals, and will continue until all come to the knowledge of the Son of God.

The "annihiliation" you speak of, I see as the dead First Adam, which still lingers but has no more power to dominate us. By now, we are all in the Last Adam, and in this I agree that there is a transformation taking place.

The "judgment" at the end of the world is in man's favor, not against him. The judgment that was against us was done away with at Calvary.

This is where we may disagree a bit; but it's good to compare notes and explore things together. I have been learning so much from practically everybody here!

Blessings,
brian
 
Old 01-12-2011, 05:00 PM
 
Location: Italy
6,387 posts, read 5,122,060 times
Reputation: 866
Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma View Post
Brian, God love you but it was not in Gods plan to sacrifice His son, a sacrifice is something one does not want to do but is something that was required. If it was something God desired then it would not be a sacrifice to Him.

I wrote this awhile back, hope it sheds some light.


God did NOT want to sacrifice His son
, but because man would NOT obey His voice God had to do that which He NEVER intended in the first place.


KJV
Jer 7:22 For I spoke not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices: Jer 7:23 But this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people: and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well unto you.


First thing I would point out is God gave the Law written in stone BEFORE He gave the commands concerning burnt offerings and sacrifices.

In the day God brought the people out of Egypt He gave commands for us to OBEY HIS VOICE but the people would not listen to OBEY HIS VOICE so God commanded burnt offerings and sacrifices for the people.

If the people had OBEYED HIS VOICE then there would have been no need of burnt offerings and sacrifices. But because of the peoples disobedience God instituted/made provision/weaved a way for man to come before Him in repentance by burnt offerings and sacrifices.

We see this very principal brought out in

1 Samuel 15:22
22 And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.


God has far more delight in our obedience then He has in us having to offer up burnt offerings and sacrifices for our sins. If we OBEY Him we have no need of sacrifices.







Now we know that the sacrifices given in the OT are a shadow of Christ sacrifice for us. Thus, God says that when He brought the people out of Egypt (God taking man from the dust of the earth OUTSIDE the garden[Egypt] and putting man into the garden) He did NOT command concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices.

Why?

Because He commanded them to Obey my voice.

The sacrifice and offerings only came into play AFTER the disobedience of man. Thus, He says to obey is better than sacrifice.

God did NOT want to sacrifice His son, He wanted obedience, but because man disobeyed His voice, He gave them a means of coming before Him through sacrifice.


Hosea 6:6
6 For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.

God did NOT desire sacrifice; therefore God did not desire the sacrifice of His son.

Psalm 40:6
6 Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required.

Again it say sacrifice and offering God did NOT desire, but it even go farther and says that they were NOT required.

If God planned all along for Jesus to be sacrificed for us why do scriptures say that offerings were NOT required?

Because if man had of obeyed His voice sacrifices and offering would NOT have been required.


Psalm 51:16
16 For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.

Again we see the same thing, God did NOT desire sacrifice.

Hebrews 10:5-6
5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: 6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sinthou hast had no pleasure.

Jesus said it Himself, sacrifice and offering God did NOT want, and He(God) found NO pleasure in them.

Now we all know that God had pleasure in the outcome of Christ sacrifice, so what is Jesus saying here? Is He not saying that God had NO pleasure in the need of sacrificing His son.

Why did He(God) have NO pleasure in sacrificing His son?

Because He wanted obedience and NOT sacrifice.
Hi pneuma,
it's getting late here, so I'm not going to write much now, but will continue tomorrow if you want, I'm glad to compare notes!

I personally don't believe that Jesus was "plan B." I think God drew up the plan of salvation before man existed, and that He knew that man would sin. It seems to me that it is a very part of our existence, that God requires us (mankind) to learn something about what it means to suffer. And He suffered for us as well.
I don't know why suffering is important, but I believe He wanted us to learn from our suffering in order to become the Son of God and to be One with Him.

As per the sacrifice bit you mentioned, I will say this: God dealt with Israel for a long time, but He also knew (imo) that they would never be obedient. If they could have obeyed, then there would have been no need for them to receive salvation. Jesus would not have been necessary.

But He was necessary, because God designed things that way. So that no flesh could glory in His presence.
"He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities." (Isa. 53:11)
I think God had pleasure in giving His Only Begotten Son. He did it so that we could all be justified!! THAT's why He loves us so much!!

Till tomorrow..!

Blessings,
brian
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