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Old 01-12-2011, 05:00 PM
 
Location: Sitting beside Walden Pond
4,610 posts, read 3,965,529 times
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Billy Graham said that once you accept Jesus as your savior, God cannot remember your sins.

If I were a Christian, I would listen to Billy.

Even though I am not a Christian, I think Billy Graham has done more good for more people than anyone I can think of.

 
Old 01-12-2011, 05:05 PM
 
Location: Somewhere
6,370 posts, read 5,633,573 times
Reputation: 575
Quote:
Originally Posted by ahigherway View Post
Hi trettep,
As I read your post, I felt that in many things we are quite in agreement. I agree that we are being changed, some more than others at this time, but that it is a process.

I think where I see things a bit differently is in the "supernatural" event that happened at Calvary. I read quite clearly in Romans 5, that God has passed justification to all mankind because of the obedience of Jesus Christ. ...
Wanted to make my response right at this break in your comments. What your saying is true but it says by FAITH this happens. So it hasn't happened to all mankind YET. So we are not justified until Justification completes the process which is only via the Faith of Jesus Christ working through us.

Quote:
This, to me, is why we talk about grace. No one can say that they "did" something to merit justification, since God did it to all across the board!
Salvation, on the other hand, aisi, is something that happens to people one-by-one. God calls some now, giving them faith. And that faith becomes truly "theirs," and they are able to therefore believe. And this belief is accounted to them for righteousness.
I'm going to hopefully erase a lot of misunderstanding about works and Faith. The scriptures say we are saved by Grace through Faith and not of OURSELVES. This Faith is NOT without works. For they are required. So does this mean I'm saying that we are saved by Faith with Works and not simply Faith - YES! But again it isn't OUR Works. This is the part people don't understand in these debates. Like my last post, I said we are saved by the BEING of Jesus Christ. So if He is in us putting down sin in our flesh then the WORKS are not OURS but His works. See here:

Rom 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

That word Deeds above is the same word interpreted as "works" elsewhere. So this verse is proof that salvation is based on WORKS. The KEY though it is isn't not OUR works. Look further:

Rom 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
Rom 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Many quote those verse against the argumet that Works are required for salvation but they leave out that bolded part. That part puts the following sentences in context. It says pertaining to the FLESH. So this is telling us that it wasn't Abraham's works that saved him. But it doesn't negate that Works are required. Just not THOSE works that are of the flesh. Think about it, WHY ELSE would that bolded part need to be said.

Quote:

But the faith they have is not their own, it was given to them.
Yes, Faith is a gift from God.


I'm just hoping to help spread at least what I learned for what its worth to those seeking to see if those things are so or not.

Paul
 
Old 01-12-2011, 05:09 PM
 
Location: Canada
6,643 posts, read 3,999,444 times
Reputation: 386
Quote:
Originally Posted by ahigherway View Post
Hi pneuma,
it's getting late here, so I'm not going to write much now, but will continue tomorrow if you want, I'm glad to compare notes!

I personally don't believe that Jesus was "plan B." I think God drew up the plan of salvation before man existed, and that He knew that man would sin. It seems to me that it is a very part of our existence, that God requires us (mankind) to learn something about what it means to suffer. And He suffered for us as well.
I don't know why suffering is important, but I believe He wanted us to learn from our suffering in order to become the Son of God and to be One with Him.

As per the sacrifice bit you mentioned, I will say this: God dealt with Israel for a long time, but He also knew (imo) that they would never be obedient. If they could have obeyed, then there would have been no need for them to receive salvation. Jesus would not have been necessary.

But He was necessary, because God designed things that way. So that no flesh could glory in His presence.
"He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities." (Isa. 53:11)
I think God had pleasure in giving His Only Begotten Son. He did it so that we could all be justified!! THAT's why He loves us so much!!

Till tomorrow..!

Blessings,
brian
Hi Brian, tis ok by me, I have dinner waiting myself so I'll work on a reply to what you said here and get back to you.

See ya tomorrow.

God bless
 
Old 01-12-2011, 06:02 PM
 
7,869 posts, read 6,677,880 times
Reputation: 1372
This is basic promise of salvation in Mark 1: 15 Jesus said ...``The time is fullfilled and the kingdom of God is at hand : repent , and believe the gospel``........Salvation Of Christ is taking believers who are obedient to the commands of Jesus , Out of the kingdom of darkness into the Kingdom of the Lord God and the authority is a check to the Lord can remove darkness out of his believers lives who repents and is baptised in water in the name of the Father Son and the Holy Spirit give heaven the authority to clean the darkness of sin out of his believers lives....and as his believer prayes for the Baptuism of Holy Spirit where power of the Lord will come with Holy Spirit to clean even more sin and the authority of the devil out of Jesus believers for a full blessing of cleaned , spirit soul and body cleaned ...... were unbelievers will have the same sin forever more..... I remember years ago I left the church and turned my back of the church , some 22 years later I want back to church with the same sin when I left and the lead in the Spirit was to go and tell the very old minister who was the minister years ago that I was returning to Church with the Lead in the spirit.... The old Minister was delighted...... God does not forget even when I did not know Him
 
Old 01-13-2011, 02:21 AM
 
Location: Italy
6,387 posts, read 5,113,870 times
Reputation: 866
Quote:
Originally Posted by trettep View Post
Wanted to make my response right at this break in your comments. What your saying is true but it says by FAITH this happens. So it hasn't happened to all mankind YET. So we are not justified until Justification completes the process which is only via the Faith of Jesus Christ working through us.



I'm going to hopefully erase a lot of misunderstanding about works and Faith. The scriptures say we are saved by Grace through Faith and not of OURSELVES. This Faith is NOT without works. For they are required. So does this mean I'm saying that we are saved by Faith with Works and not simply Faith - YES! But again it isn't OUR Works. This is the part people don't understand in these debates. Like my last post, I said we are saved by the BEING of Jesus Christ. So if He is in us putting down sin in our flesh then the WORKS are not OURS but His works. See here:

Rom 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

That word Deeds above is the same word interpreted as "works" elsewhere. So this verse is proof that salvation is based on WORKS. The KEY though it is isn't not OUR works. Look further:

Rom 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
Rom 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Many quote those verse against the argumet that Works are required for salvation but they leave out that bolded part. That part puts the following sentences in context. It says pertaining to the FLESH. So this is telling us that it wasn't Abraham's works that saved him. But it doesn't negate that Works are required. Just not THOSE works that are of the flesh. Think about it, WHY ELSE would that bolded part need to be said.



Yes, Faith is a gift from God.


I'm just hoping to help spread at least what I learned for what its worth to those seeking to see if those things are so or not.

Paul
Hi Paul,
I completely agree with you that the works that count are those of God within us, through His Spirit. The faith that He gives man is a work of His. The confusion comes when people think that their faith comes from themselves. That's where spiritual pride is born.

I do however see justification and salvation as two separate things. Justification has been passed to all mankind; Adam's sin is no longer the "spreading power" in mankind, but justification. "Where sin abounded, grace did much more abound."
Like a virus that began to spread through humanity, grace (the antivirus) has begun to spread since 2,000 and is overtaking the virus.

Salvation is different. Salvation comes when God draws an individual to Himself, gives him His faith, thereby causing him to believe. And this resulting belief leads to righteousness. And I agree, HIS faith does the works in us.

So I don't equate justification with salvation, although they go hand-in-hand.

To me it seems very plain now, that God has reconciled (justified) all mankind to Himself. That is by His grace and mercy alone. "By truth and mercy, iniquity is purged."

This mercy may be the very "hell" that so many here on cd are harping about.

Blessings!
Brian
 
Old 01-13-2011, 06:54 AM
 
Location: Somewhere
6,370 posts, read 5,633,573 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ahigherway View Post
Hi Paul,
I completely agree with you that the works that count are those of God within us, through His Spirit. The faith that He gives man is a work of His. The confusion comes when people think that their faith comes from themselves. That's where spiritual pride is born.

I do however see justification and salvation as two separate things. Justification has been passed to all mankind; Adam's sin is no longer the "spreading power" in mankind, but justification. "Where sin abounded, grace did much more abound."
Like a virus that began to spread through humanity, grace (the antivirus) has begun to spread since 2,000 and is overtaking the virus.

Salvation is different. Salvation comes when God draws an individual to Himself, gives him His faith, thereby causing him to believe. And this resulting belief leads to righteousness. And I agree, HIS faith does the works in us.

So I don't equate justification with salvation, although they go hand-in-hand.

To me it seems very plain now, that God has reconciled (justified) all mankind to Himself. That is by His grace and mercy alone. "By truth and mercy, iniquity is purged."

This mercy may be the very "hell" that so many here on cd are harping about.

Blessings!
Brian
Remember, Jesus inspected the fruit of the tree.
 
Old 01-13-2011, 09:21 AM
 
Location: Canada
6,643 posts, read 3,999,444 times
Reputation: 386
Quote:
I personally don't believe that Jesus was "plan B."


Morning Brian,

I donít believe Jesus was plan ďBĒ either.

In the garden before Adams disobedience walked the WORD/Jesus Christ, He is the tree of life in the middle of the garden.

Jesus LIFE is what saves us, Jesus death is what reconciled us.

Before Adams disobedience there was NO NEED for man to be reconciled, thus DEATH was NOT a factor. However, LIFE was a factor and from the tree of LIFE, Adam could freely eat.

To freely eat from the tree of LIFE is obedience to the commandments of God, to be disobedient to the commandments of God brings DEATH.

Now if you reread my last post about God not desiring sacrifice but obedience you hopefully can see what took place in the garden.

When God gave the commandment thou shalt not eat, which is the same as when God said OBEY MY VOICE and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people: and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well unto you.

Now because Adam refused to OBEY GODS VOICE (was disobedient) death ensued and God had to do something He did not want to do, God had to make a way for man to be able to come before Him. Thus sacrifice and offerings (Christ death for us), which God did NOT desire, came into play.

Now remember Jesus LIFE is what saves us, the tree of LIFE was in the middle of the garden and Adam could have freely eaten from it. Gods PLAN has always been and will always be for man to eat from the tree of LIFE that they do not have to see DEATH.

So as the tree of LIFE/Jesus Christ was to be freely partaken of and Jesus said Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death we can see OBEDIENCE to Jesus was always Gods plan from the very beginning.


Quote:
I think God drew up the plan of salvation before man existed,


Yes He did and it was called the TREE OF LIFE


Quote:
and that He knew that man would sin.


Brian there is a world of difference between foreknowledge of an event and being the cause or planning out of an event.

Quote:
It seems to me that it is a very part of our existence


Yes sin is NOW a part of our existence, but it was NOT so in the garden. It was NOT until AFTER Adams disobedience that man was given a coat of skin.

A coat of skin is that of a DEAD animal

Quote:
, that God requires us (mankind) to learn something about what it means to suffer. And He suffered for us as well.
I don't know why suffering is important, but I believe He wanted us to learn from our suffering in order to become the Son of God and to be One with Him.


There are TWO methods of suffering brother, we are told NOT to suffer as the evil doers but to suffer for righteousness sake.


Quote:
As per the sacrifice bit you mentioned, I will say this: God dealt with Israel for a long time, but He also knew (imo) that they would never be obedient. If they could have obeyed, then there would have been no need for them to receive salvation. Jesus would not have been necessary.


Not so Brian, the tree of LIFE Adam could have freely eaten of. Man by himself could never be obedient to God that is why the tree of LIFE was in the garden with man. If Adam had of eaten from the tree of life he would have born the fruits of that LIFE and would not have tasted of death.

The LIFE of Christ or partaking of the tree of LIFE is the cause of ALL our obedience; it is His LIFE in us that causes us to walk with God. If Adam had of eaten from the tree of LIFE he never would have been disobedient and fallen into death.

Quote:
But He was necessary, because God designed things that way. So that no flesh could glory in His presence.


If one eats from the tree of LIFE and produces, the fruit of that tree because of the eating where is it that the flesh could glory in the presence of God?

Quote:
"He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities." (Isa. 53:11)
I think God had pleasure in giving His Only Begotten Son. He did it so that we could all be justified!! THAT's why He loves us so much!!


Brian the scriptures say God has NO pleasure in sacrifice. However God sacrificed His son to reconcile (not save us) us back to the garden state where we have free access to the tree of LIFE and can freely eat thereof.

Brother this really all comes down to Gods plan.

Many seem to believe God planned out Adams disobedience and fall in order to save mankind. Thus stating in effect that without Adam sin Christ could not save mankind.

This belief makes Adam on equal footing with Christ for the salvation of man. Cause and effect.

Brother Adam has NO part in the salvation of man, Christ is the ONLY way and there is NONE other.

There are TWO ways God saves us from sin.

The first is the one everyone seems to look at never thinking that there is a second higher and better method.

The first consists of God saving mankind from sin by permeating the LIFE of Christ into man and lifting man out of sin by that LIFE.

The second, higher and better way is by saving man from ever entering into sin because the LIFE of Christ CANNOT sin. Thus Christ LIFE saves us from sin.
 
Old 01-13-2011, 09:56 AM
 
Location: Italy
6,387 posts, read 5,113,870 times
Reputation: 866
Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma View Post

Morning Brian,

I donít believe Jesus was plan ďBĒ either.

In the garden before Adams disobedience walked the WORD/Jesus Christ, He is the tree of life in the middle of the garden.

Jesus LIFE is what saves us, Jesus death is what reconciled us.

Before Adams disobedience there was NO NEED for man to be reconciled, thus DEATH was NOT a factor. However, LIFE was a factor and from the tree of LIFE, Adam could freely eat.

To freely eat from the tree of LIFE is obedience to the commandments of God, to be disobedient to the commandments of God brings DEATH.

Now if you reread my last post about God not desiring sacrifice but obedience you hopefully can see what took place in the garden.

When God gave the commandment thou shalt not eat, which is the same as when God said OBEY MY VOICE and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people: and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well unto you.

Now because Adam refused to OBEY GODS VOICE (was disobedient) death ensued and God had to do something He did not want to do, God had to make a way for man to be able to come before Him. Thus sacrifice and offerings (Christ death for us), which God did NOT desire, came into play.

Now remember Jesus LIFE is what saves us, the tree of LIFE was in the middle of the garden and Adam could have freely eaten from it. Gods PLAN has always been and will always be for man to eat from the tree of LIFE that they do not have to see DEATH.

So as the tree of LIFE/Jesus Christ was to be freely partaken of and Jesus said Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death we can see OBEDIENCE to Jesus was always Gods plan from the very beginning.




Yes He did and it was called the TREE OF LIFE




Brian there is a world of difference between foreknowledge of an event and being the cause or planning out of an event.



Yes sin is NOW a part of our existence, but it was NOT so in the garden. It was NOT until AFTER Adams disobedience that man was given a coat of skin.

A coat of skin is that of a DEAD animal



There are TWO methods of suffering brother, we are told NOT to suffer as the evil doers but to suffer for righteousness sake.




Not so Brian, the tree of LIFE Adam could have freely eaten of. Man by himself could never be obedient to God that is why the tree of LIFE was in the garden with man. If Adam had of eaten from the tree of life he would have born the fruits of that LIFE and would not have tasted of death.

The LIFE of Christ or partaking of the tree of LIFE is the cause of ALL our obedience; it is His LIFE in us that causes us to walk with God. If Adam had of eaten from the tree of LIFE he never would have been disobedient and fallen into death.



If one eats from the tree of LIFE and produces, the fruit of that tree because of the eating where is it that the flesh could glory in the presence of God?



Brian the scriptures say God has NO pleasure in sacrifice. However God sacrificed His son to reconcile (not save us) us back to the garden state where we have free access to the tree of LIFE and can freely eat thereof.

Brother this really all comes down to Gods plan.

Many seem to believe God planned out Adams disobedience and fall in order to save mankind. Thus stating in effect that without Adam sin Christ could not save mankind.

This belief makes Adam on equal footing with Christ for the salvation of man. Cause and effect.

Brother Adam has NO part in the salvation of man, Christ is the ONLY way and there is NONE other.

There are TWO ways God saves us from sin.

The first is the one everyone seems to look at never thinking that there is a second higher and better method.

The first consists of God saving mankind from sin by permeating the LIFE of Christ into man and lifting man out of sin by that LIFE.

The second, higher and better way is by saving man from ever entering into sin because the LIFE of Christ CANNOT sin. Thus Christ LIFE saves us from sin.
Hi pneuma,
your post was very long, and I don't know how to respond to so many thoughts all at once, so I'll start with a few things that stuck out as I read your post.

I agree that True Life is in Christ Jesus, and always has been, even in the garden of Eden. (Some people believe that we are the garden of Eden.)

I also agree that Adam could have eaten of the Tree of Life. However, when he was cast out, he was prevented from going back and eating from it. (As were all others after him.)

This is why I see Adam and Christ as, not cause and effect, but almost like two "polarities." The first was negative, the second is positive.

Romans 5 seems very plain to me, that the curse under Adam has been done away in Christ (supernaturally) and we are all now justified. Then, salvation is imparted, and we begin to walk in True Life that Adam would have had if he had eaten of that Tree of Life.


I'll stop here and wait for you to add what you like.
If we go little by little, I feel less overwhelmed!...

Blessings,
brian
 
Old 01-13-2011, 03:31 PM
 
Location: Canada
6,643 posts, read 3,999,444 times
Reputation: 386
Quote:
I agree that True Life is in Christ Jesus, and always has been, even in the garden of Eden. (Some people believe that we are the garden of Eden.)

I also agree that Adam could have eaten of the Tree of Life.


Ok so you agree the tree of lifein the garden was Christ and Adam could have eaten from it. Now what would have happened if Adam had of eaten from the tree of life? Death or a more abundant life.

If you pick the more abundant life why then believe death was a part of original plan?


Quote:
However, when he was cast out, he was prevented from going back and eating from it. (As were all others after him.)



Lets deal with Gods original plan first, that of freely eating from the tree of life.

Was it Gods plan for Adam to eat freely from the tree of life? Yes or no

Was it Gods plan for Adam to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil?Yes or no

Your answer to those two questions will tell you God original plan.

Quote:
This is why I see Adam and Christ as, not cause and effect, but almost like two "polarities." The first was negative, the second is positive.


Does not matter if you see it as polar opposites brother you cannot get away from the fact that because of Adam sin (cause) Christ had to die for us(effect). Thus giving Adam equal footing as Christ in Godís plan. Tis the same as saying disobedience and obedience have both equal footing in Godís plan.

Adams/mans ways are the ways of death, Gods ways are not our ways therefore Gods ways do not include death. Death always comes about from the ways of man and has nothing to do with Gods ways. Gods ways always overcomes death.




Quote:
Romans 5 seems very plain to me, that the curse under Adam has been done away in Christ (supernaturally) and we are all now justified.


Yes but where do you see any curse under Adam BEFORE he was disobedient?

Romans deals with man AFTER Adams disobedience.


Quote:
Then, salvation is imparted, and we begin to walk in True Life that Adam would have had if he had eaten of that Tree of Life.


Ok if Adam had of eaten from the tree of life he would have had true life, correct?

Then why believe death was a part of Gods plan?

Obviously God wanted Adam to eat from the tree of life and not to eat from the TOKOGE for He says Himself freely eat and thou shalt not eat.

To say God planned for Adam to eat from the TOKOGE is the same as saying thou shalt not eat really means go ahead and eat because I really mean for you to eat from that which I told you not to eat. It basically makes Gods commandment of no effect whatsoever.

I believe God says what He means and means what He says, any other scenario make God out to be a liar.
 
Old 01-13-2011, 04:28 PM
 
Location: Italy
6,387 posts, read 5,113,870 times
Reputation: 866
Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma View Post

Ok so you agree the tree of lifein the garden was Christ and Adam could have eaten from it. Now what would have happened if Adam had of eaten from the tree of life? Death or a more abundant life.

If you pick the more abundant life why then believe death was a part of original plan?


HI Pneuma,
If Adam had eaten, he would have enjoyed the life he already had when created; I don't see why it would have been "better." He was already a son of God. But if it were better, that might be also true, I'm not so interested in this aspect at the moment..


Lets deal with Gods original plan first, that of freely eating from the tree of life.

Was it Gods plan for Adam to eat freely from the tree of life? Yes or no

Was it Gods plan for Adam to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil?Yes or no

Your answer to those two questions will tell you God original plan.

God placed both trees in the garden, and preferred that Adam would obey. Yet He knew what Adam would be drawn to, and allowed him this freedom. It is part of the design.

Does not matter if you see it as polar opposites brother you cannot get away from the fact that because of Adam sin (cause) Christ had to die for us(effect). Thus giving Adam equal footing as Christ in Godís plan. Tis the same as saying disobedience and obedience have both equal footing in Godís plan.

Adams/mans ways are the ways of death, Gods ways are not our ways therefore Gods ways do not include death. Death always comes about from the ways of man and has nothing to do with Gods ways. Gods ways always overcomes death.


A cause-effect relationship makes me think that one "depends" on the other. But Christ does not "depend" on Adam, He is simply the "remedy."
The rest I agree with.



Yes but where do you see any curse under Adam BEFORE he was disobedient?

Romans deals with man AFTER Adams disobedience.

Yes, the curse came after his disobedience. Did I say that he was cursed before he disobeyed? If so, I made a mistake.


Ok if Adam had of eaten from the tree of life he would have had true life, correct?

Then why believe death was a part of Gods plan?

Obviously God wanted Adam to eat from the tree of life and not to eat from the TOKOGE for He says Himself freely eat and thou shalt not eat.

To say God planned for Adam to eat from the TOKOGE is the same as saying thou shalt not eat really means go ahead and eat because I really mean for you to eat from that which I told you not to eat. It basically makes Gods commandment of no effect whatsoever.

I believe God says what He means and means what He says, any other scenario make God out to be a liar.


Again, I believe that God always desires for man to do what is right. However, in order for Adam to become a Son, he had to go through suffering.
The suffering could have been prevented by God in many ways. He could have told Adam, "ok, let's try one more time." Or, He could have only condemned Adam but not his offspring. Or He could have started over with a new Adam.
But it seems clear to me that God knew what Adam would do, since He made him with His very own hands. The disobedience is part of what was necessary for God to justify and save mankind by His own grace through the sacrifice of Himself in Christ Jesus later on.
Shall we continue tomorrow? I'm going to sleep, but I'm enjoying the discussion and will check back tomorrow! --And I'm anxious to hear your comments/thoughts!

Blessings,
brian
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