U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
 
 
Old 01-13-2011, 10:31 PM
 
Location: Somewhere
6,370 posts, read 5,632,775 times
Reputation: 575

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Obamuchadnezzar View Post
Sorry, but that's....dishonest, to say the least. And laughable.

Atheists do not believe in God. There's a difference between hating someone and not believing in their existence. I may hate the idea of living a Christian lifestyle, but If I died and saw that God existed, then, uh, I'd want to go to heaven....

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

I don't believe there is such thing as an atheist but that would be off topic. The topic is about sin lasting forever. The point is that in the ET doctrine, they preach that sinners will rebel against God forever. If that is the case then Rebellion is a SIN and that would mean that KING SIN is smiling because he gets a kindgom of subjects compliments of Jesus Christ in which he gets to exact his own dominion for the remainder of eternity. This is FLAWED. God turns everyones heart towards his will in due time.

P.S. - there is no such thing as an atheist. Even the atheist believes in the SELF as god.

 
Old 01-14-2011, 03:24 AM
 
Location: Italy
6,387 posts, read 5,112,960 times
Reputation: 866
Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma View Post
I am enjoying the descussion also brother, I have not posted so much in months. See you in the A.M.
Hi pneuma!
Ok, let's continue, step by step:

God gave man the Tree of Life; but He knew Adam would take the other, and that was expected and planned. Yet salvation was planned even before the fall.

Cause and effect: a stone in water causes ripples. But Adam did not cause Jesus!

Free will? Free yes, but only in the sphere that God allows.

To be continued...!

Blessings
brian
 
Old 01-14-2011, 06:14 AM
 
Location: Florida -
8,250 posts, read 10,020,659 times
Reputation: 15127
Default "They are without excuse" - Rom 1:18-21

Quote:
Originally Posted by Obamuchadnezzar View Post
See, it's things like this that don't make any sense. None at all.

The only reason "unrepentent sinners" reject God in the first place because they don't believe that he exists. If they die and see that there IS a Heaven, do you REALLY think that they'd be kicking and screaming/reluctant to go to heaven? Come on.....
My attempt at allegory is probably weak; ... However, the specious claim by some that "they do not believe God exists and therefore, do not believe in God" is only a futile 'device' to avoid their own accountability to God.

Rom. 1:18-21 says that God has created every person with an inborn knowledge of His divine nature and power ... and that those who suppress that knowledge are without excuse. The Psalms declare, "Only a fool says in his heart that there is not God."

In one sense, you are right. After death, everyone will openly acknowledge the truth, "... that Jesus is Lord." - But, that is not a true 'saving' profession of faith. It is only the ultimate acknowledgement of their own wicked, sinful rebellion against God's obvious truth -- It will be their acknowledgement that they willfully refused God's lifetime-only offer of life, mercy and grace --- and deserve the just, 'death wages of sin.'

In many years of ministry, I encountered many 'professing atheists' who 'claimed' not to know or believe God's truth. But, in every case, the truth was that they "refused to believe," not, "they didn't know.' Invariably, their "atheism" was based on an 'anger with God' for something in their life that they blamed Him for' ... (the death of a loved one or some other loss).

Most "atheists" are like children, stomping their foot and shouting "I hate you" at a parent. --- Some stubbornly allow this to grow into a lifetime obsession, but, in their hearts, they know the truth that would bring them forgiveness and life ... and have chosen to refuse it
 
Old 01-14-2011, 06:42 AM
 
Location: Italy
6,387 posts, read 5,112,960 times
Reputation: 866
Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma View Post

Brian the life Adam had was not the same as the life he would have had had he eaten from the tree of life or there would not have been a tree of life in the garden for him to freely eat from. We too are sons of God and we know that a more abundant life awaits us. Eye has not seen nor ear heard all the things that God has prepared for us and we know not yet what we shall be.


Hi Pneuma,
I'm answering again since I have a little more time now.
We can see that God gave Adam life, and he had life before eating from either tree. He was also considered "good" before eating from either tree. So there are many implications, and there are many understandings of the Eden context.
What I'm most interested in is the fact that God condemned all mankind because of one sin. Life teaches us that this type of condemnation would normally be considered "unfair" since no one but Adam was responsible for his sin.
And if we begin to dig into scripture more, we start to find that God has condemned all mankind in order to justify all mankind through the Gift of His Son. (God is just; I don't think anyone would deny this precept.)

The Tree of Life, I believe, like you, IS the Son Jesus, who gave Himself for the life of the world.

Brian without looking at this aspect how in the world can we ever understand God original plan for man. What took place in the garden and what could have taken place if Adam had of been obedient shows us what God planned out for man and how badly man screwed things up. If we only look at things after the fall we only see the potter responding to the clay and not Gods original intent for man.

Actually, we don't know fully how things would have played out if Adam had obeyed God. We can only speculate. I think he would have had the power and abilities that we see spoken of of Jesus: healing, raising the dead, feeding the masses, etc. I tend to think that we all would have become like Him in this way, and it's still our destiny, but we have to pass through suffering to get there. And that suffering, as I mentioned before, is also God's plan, imo.

I understand your POV; you say that God's intention was for man not to fall, right? I disagree; even though I actually agree in part, I just think that the means that God has chosen for us to become Godly (like God) is through suffering. God knew exactly what would happen to Adam, it didn't take Him by surprise at all. In fact, He placed the TOKOGE right in the middle of the Garden! He is a very knowledgeable, wise Father; His ways are truly for our good, He confirms it day after day in my heart; I am convinced of it.



There were not really two trees in the garden brother. The trees are symbolic of Jesus Christ and the commandments of God.

As God preferred Adam to obey Him, is it not then clear that obedience was Gods plan all along?

Sometimes parents know that for their children to grow, they must go through hard times first. Adam did things exactly as God knew that he would. Salvation was prepared long before.


I may have you confused with someone else, but I thought you did not believe in freewill.

I do

God gave man the freewill to make a choice between life and death.

Adam chose to disobey God and that was a choice of death for he knew fully the consequence of his choice because God specifically told him what the consequence was.

If Adam's sin and disobedience was a part of Gods design why was the tree of life in the garden? Why did God specifically tell Adam not to eat?

If God designed it all out the way you believe, His command not to eat was only a sham on His part for He then really did not mean what He said. Don't eat , but to bad for you I designed you so that you could do not but eat.

Free will is a tricky definition. I believe man is free, but to a limited extent. He has a limited "realm" in which to move, beyond which God prevents him. For example, God prevented Adam from eating from the Tree of Life after his disobedience. It was for his own good.

The Tree of Life was there for Adam to eat, and he didn't. By God telling Adam what to eat and what not to eat, He gave Adam the first lessons in righteousness.
God does not tell man to sin. Telling Adam to not eat of the TOKOGE was a righteous commandment, not a sham. Man was made with the inclination to sin, and God made him that way. Yet God is never far away, always ready to assist man where needed. Nothing in the garden was out of God's control, aisi.










First lets look at what you agree with. This is what I said.

Adams/mans ways are the ways of death, Gods ways are not our ways therefore Gods ways do not include death. Death always comes about from the ways of man and has nothing to do with Gods ways. Gods ways always overcomes death.

Now if you agree that mans ways are the ways of death and Gods ways are not mans ways why do you believe God design includes death?

Yes cause and effect depends on each other. You believe God designed Adam to fall into sin so that He could then send Jesus to save us from our sin. No matter how you look at it brother that is cause and effect, for if it was not for the one the other never could have happened.


God's ways clearly include death! The plan of salvation was by the shedding of blood. Death was the curse that God pronounced upon Adam, and Life is the blessing that God pronounced upon Jesus Christ. Whatever you see happening in Adam, you will find the reverse in Christ.
Like in my other post, cause and effect are linear, and simplistic or insufficient. To be cause and effect, Adam's sin would have "caused" Jesus obedience. But it is not that way.
Jesus Christ was slain from the foundation of the world. God knew what would happen with the man Adam that He made, and prepared accordingly. In fact, it seems quite clear now to me, that God didn't "make a mistake" when He created Adam. He created Adam with a sin nature which was activated in a short time after he was in the Garden. God made all according to a plan. And that plan requires suffering and death for everyone; yet Love overcomes it all in the end.




No you did not say the curse was before Adams disobedience, but we are talking about Gods original plan for man and you used Romans 5 to show what you believed was Gods plan for man.

I pointed out that in Gods original plan for man NO curse was present so Romans 5 does not apply.

Here is where we see things differently, Pneuma. (The whole purpose of our discussion!) You see God's plan was not what happened in reality. Aisi, God's plan was perfectly fulfilled.

And this is no small conclusion. I truly believe that millions of people today (as in the past) are convinced that they are unloved by God because of Adam. My message is: NO! God loves us more than we can possibly imagine, and Adam's fall was necessary according to God's plan for us to know how much He actually does love us! We are not a failure in His sight!





Well if God desired Adam to do what was right then why would He have designed Adam to do what was wrong?


God gives the righteous commandments; but apparently He doesn't want us to be "realized" by simply following commandments. He has preferred to make us to know Him by Him imparting His Nature to us. There is more grace, more freedom, and absolutely NO room for boasting in this way.


Adam was already a son of God, but was not yet perfect.

I have no problem with being made perfect through suffering brother. What I have a problem with is the belief that we must suffer as the evil doers do, which is what you are saying because you believe God designed Adam to fall into sin through disobedience.

You make a very interesting observation. It made me think of where Paul writes in Romans 7, that when he does wrong, it's not him doing the wrong, but sin in him that does it. Paul seems to be telling us, aisi, that we are not to blame for the evil; only the wicked one (son of perdition, sin, devils, etc.). Also, "he who is dead is freed from sin." It may very well be, that at the moment of death, all that is wicked (flesh, demons, etc) are "cast off" of the man, so that he may pass to the Father through the Son.
Let's remember, it was GOD who was justifying mankind on the cross, way before anyone was "repenting."



Question: was Adam finished being made in Gods hands while in the garden? If so there was no need for the tree of life or the TOKOGE.

What transpired in the garden is God shaping the clay into His image and likeness, but the clay has a life of its own ( a life that must be given up) and wants to return to the dust from whence it was taken, which was from OUTSIDE of the garden. The NATURE of clay is to return to it natural form and will continue to fight against the potters hands, squeezing out from between His fingers in order to retain it natural form.

What happened to Adam? He returned to the dust from whence he was taken, OUTSIDE of the garden.

Good question. I don't think he was "perfected," there was more that he needed to go through first.
Your analogy of the clay is interesting. Jehovah's Witnesses have told me in the past that they believe (at least the ones talking with me did) that the clay has to "be willing" to be formed by God.
Personally, I think this is an absurd statement; I think the Potter knows exactly how to work the clay, any clay. Otherwise, what kind of potter is he???



And that is cause and effect brother, the one dependent on the other, which gives Adam equal footing in Gods design as Jesus Christ.


We are 110 percent dependent on God. Jesus Christ was not dependent on Adam, imo.. He had the came "title" or "power" or "authority" or "office" as Adam, in that His One Act of obedience counteracted Adam's one act of disobedience. "Neutralized" comes to mind here.



Was it Gods plan for Adam to eat freely from the tree of life? Yes or no
Was it Gods plan for Adam to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil?Yes or no

Brian can you please answer these two question for they go a long why in showing what Gods original plan was for man.

Not immediately, no. Yes.

It's not that it was God's "plan" for man to sin, as if He "forced" him to eat. He made man a way that He knew would cause him to know suffering.
Awaiting your comments...

Blessings!
Brian
 
Old 01-14-2011, 06:44 AM
 
Location: Canada
6,643 posts, read 3,998,284 times
Reputation: 386
Quote:
God gave man the Tree of Life; but He knew Adam would take the other, and that was expected and planned.


Morning Brian,

Your speaking of Gods foreknowledge, but foreknowledge does not work the way people look at it. God provided TWO paths so to speak, one of life and one of death. If man chooses by his own freewill to follow Christ (because God had already called out and separated unto Himself Adam) God foreknows everything that will happen to man because His life permeates though man. God also knows if the man He has called out makes the choice of death God knows everything that will happen to man because they have rejected His life.

People seem to take God foreknowledge to extremes even stating God foreknows what each person will have for breakfast and because God foreknows this, man does not really have a choice, his breakfast was already predestinated.


Quote:
Yet salvation was planned even before the fall.



Yes, and that salvation was in the garden BEFORE man fell. The fall is NOT a requirement for salvation.


Quote:
Cause and effect: a stone in water causes ripples. But Adam did not cause Jesus!


No Adam did not cause Jesus but according to your belief Adams sin was necessary so that Christ would die for our salvation. So the cause and effect is still in play according to what you believe. A simple question can illustrate this if you will answer it.

Question: did Adam have to sin in order for salvation to occur? Yes or no

Your answer so far has been yes and that equates to cause and effect.


Quote:
Free will? Free yes, but only in the sphere that God allows.


And that sphere is only in the choice of life or death. If one chooses life one will produce the fruits of that tree, if one chooses death one will produce the fruits of that tree.

Brother it is this aspect that many see so they do away with freewill altogether forgetting that it is the eating by ones choice that produces the fruit from the tree of choice.

Freewill is true up until the choice is made, after one makes the choice freewill disappears because one then can only produce the fruit of the tree they have eaten from.

Brian I asked a few questions and I would appreciate it if you would take the time to answer them. They do go a long way in showing God original plan for man and give me a clearer understanding of where you stand on this matter.
 
Old 01-14-2011, 07:13 AM
 
Location: Italy
6,387 posts, read 5,112,960 times
Reputation: 866
Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma View Post

Morning Brian,

Your speaking of Gods foreknowledge, but foreknowledge does not work the way people look at it. God provided TWO paths so to speak, one of life and one of death. If man chooses by his own freewill to follow Christ (because God had already called out and separated unto Himself Adam) God foreknows everything that will happen to man because His life permeates though man. God also knows if the man He has called out makes the choice of death God knows everything that will happen to man because they have rejected His life.

People seem to take God foreknowledge to extremes even stating God foreknows what each person will have for breakfast and because God foreknows this, man does not really have a choice, his breakfast was already predestinated.

Wow! That was fast! (I usually take longer to make long posts! )
Anyways, I in fact do believe God had foreknowledge. Even man has foreknowledge. I know that if I tell a little child to not touch a hot stove, he/she will most likely do it in a short time. I believe God is even more knowledgeable in this respect. (As per the breakfast question, I don't know what to say; maybe He knows, maybe not. I do suppose that He could know it without problems. We are quite predictable creatures after all..)



Yes, and that salvation was in the garden BEFORE man fell. The fall is NOT a requirement for salvation.

No, the fall was not a requirement for salvation; salvation was a requirement for the fall. That is, God created the remedy before the virus.


No Adam did not cause Jesus but according to your belief Adams sin was necessary so that Christ would die for our salvation. So the cause and effect is still in play according to what you believe. A simple question can illustrate this if you will answer it.

Question: did Adam have to sin in order for salvation to occur? Yes or no

Your answer so far has been yes and that equates to cause and effect.

No. Salvation was designed and put into place before the sin. Jesus is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.


And that sphere is only in the choice of life or death. If one chooses life one will produce the fruits of that tree, if one chooses death one will produce the fruits of that tree.

Brother it is this aspect that many see so they do away with freewill altogether forgetting that it is the eating by ones choice that produces the fruit from the tree of choice.

Freewill is true up until the choice is made, after one makes the choice freewill disappears because one then can only produce the fruit of the tree they have eaten from.

Brian I asked a few questions and I would appreciate it if you would take the time to answer them. They do go a long way in showing God original plan for man and give me a clearer understanding of where you stand on this matter.
Have I answered them all? I don't mean to "skip" them if I do!..
Let me know if I haven't and I'll reply...

(Just a parethesis: God told Adam the consequences of eating of the TOKOGE, but He didn't say anything about the Tree of Life. In fact, the Tree of Life was "in the background" of the whole account..)

Blessings,
brian
 
Old 01-14-2011, 08:26 AM
 
Location: Canada
6,643 posts, read 3,998,284 times
Reputation: 386
Quote:
Hi Pneuma,
I'm answering again since I have a little more time now.
We can see that God gave Adam life, and he had life before eating from either tree. He was also considered "good" before eating from either tree. So there are many implications, and there are many understandings of the Eden context.
What I'm most interested in is the fact that God condemned all mankind because of one sin. Life teaches us that this type of condemnation would normally be considered "unfair" since no one but Adam was responsible for his sin.
And if we begin to dig into scripture more, we start to find that God has condemned all mankind in order to justify all mankind through the Gift of His Son. (God is just; I don't think anyone would deny this precept.)


Hi Brian, thanks for responding

But again this was after the fall brother, God did not condemn all men to disobedience until AFTER Adam sinned. This condemnation only came into play because Adam bore the fruit of disobedience because of his choice and God gave him over to the choice he (Adam) made.


Quote:
Actually, we don't know fully how things would have played out if Adam had obeyed God. We can only speculate.



It is NOT speculation brother, eating from Christ produces a more abundant LIFE, therefore we know without a doubt that if Adam had of eaten from the tree of LIFE he would have produced the fruit of that tree and had that more abundant LIFE.


Quote:
I think he would have had the power and abilities that we see spoken of of Jesus: healing, raising the dead, feeding the masses, etc. I tend to think that we all would have become like Him in this way, and it's still our destiny, but we have to pass through suffering to get there. And that suffering, as I mentioned before, is also God's plan, imo.



Yes suffering is involved, but there are TWO type of suffering. One can suffer for sins and one can suffer for righteousness. What your saying is in order for God to make man perfect man has to enter into sin and reap the suffering for that sin.

Jesus' life debunks that very scenario, for He suffered yet WITHOUT sin.

Not all suffering is the same.


Quote:
I understand your POV; you say that God's intention was for man not to fall, right?


Correct


Quote:
I disagree; even though I actually agree in part, I just think that the means that God has chosen for us to become Godly (like God) is through suffering. God knew exactly what would happen to Adam, it didn't take Him by surprise at all. In fact, He placed the TOKOGE right in the middle of the Garden! He is a very knowledgeable, wise Father; His ways are truly for our good, He confirms it day after day in my heart; I am convinced of it.



I know you disagree brother that is why we are having this conversation. And again you are equating all suffering to be the same. Yes God knew what would happen to Adam because God knows what will happen to all who reject His LIFE.

Yes HIS WAYS are truly for our good, but brother DEATH is the WAYS of MAN, not Gods WAYS.


Quote:
Sometimes parents know that for their children to grow, they must go through hard times first. Adam did things exactly as God knew that he would. Salvation was prepared long before.



Yes and as I keep pointing out that salvation was in the garden BEFORE Adam fell.

Ok this is where this conversation always gets touchy, but I have to use a scenario that is not pleasant to contemplate.

According to your belief God designed Adam to fall that he might learn suffering. That fall imputed sin unto the world. So every suffering for sin in the world is according to your understanding hard times that a child must go through. So a child that is raped and murdered is not but hard times of suffering God designed for that child to go through?

I don't care how one want to look at this brother but that makes God a far greater monster then the ET doctrine makes God out to be for it accords suffering for sin in THIS LIFE and then again in the NEXT, while ET only at least places the suffering in the NEXT.

Love does all it can to protect it children, it does NOT design for its children to be raped and murdered. Rape and murder has NOTHING to do with LOVE, they are fruits of the WRONG TREE.




Quote:
Free will is a tricky definition. I believe man is free, but to a limited extent. He has a limited "realm" in which to move, beyond which God prevents him. For example, God prevented Adam from eating from the Tree of Life after his disobedience. It was for his own good.

The Tree of Life was there for Adam to eat, and he didn't. By God telling Adam what to eat and what not to eat, He gave Adam the first lessons in righteousness.
God does not tell man to sin. Telling Adam to not eat of the TOKOGE was a righteous commandment, not a sham. Man was made with the inclination to sin, and God made him that way. Yet God is never far away, always ready to assist man where needed. Nothing in the garden was out of God's control, aisi.


I already addresses this in my last post, which I know you have not yet read so I will wait until you do before carrying on with this point.

What does aisi mean




Quote:
God's ways clearly include death!


Then explain why the tree of LIFE was in the garden?
Explain why God commandedAdam NOT to eat from the TOKOGE?

If Gods ways included DEATH then the command NOT to eat is a sham.

Besides we already agreed Gods ways are not mans ways and we know mans ways are the ways of death, therefore death is not a part of Gods ways.


Quote:
The plan of salvation was by the shedding of blood.


After the fall, not before



Quote:
Death was the curse that God pronounced upon Adam



God did NOT pronounce death upon Adam, Adam took death upon himself through his disobedience.



Quote:
, and Life is the blessing that God pronounced upon Jesus Christ.



Yes life is a blessing that God gave upon Christ and ALL who OBEY HIS VOICE.
Adam obeys, life ensues. Adam disobeys, death ensues.


Quote:
Whatever you see happening in Adam, you will find the reverse in Christ.



And who is the WAY, PLAN, DESIGN of God?


Quote:
Like in my other post, cause and effect are linear, and simplistic or insufficient. To be cause and effect, Adam's sin would have "caused" Jesus obedience. But it is not that way.
Jesus Christ was slain from the foundation of the world. God knew what would happen with the man Adam that He made, and prepared accordingly. In fact, it seems quite clear now to me, that God didn't "make a mistake" when He created Adam. He created Adam with a sin nature which was activated in a short time after he was in the Garden. God made all according to a plan. And that plan requires suffering and death for everyone; yet Love overcomes it all in the end.


The lamb slain from the foundation of the world is NOT this world we live in, it is the world we shall live in. I already explained this in an earlier post. You keep wanting to get away from cause and effect but you cannot. According to your belief Adam had to sin or Christ could not bring salvation. The one is dependent upon the other. That then makes the tree of life in the garden a sham.



Quote:
Here is where we see things differently, Pneuma. (The whole purpose of our discussion!) You see God's plan was not what happened in reality. Aisi, God's plan was perfectly fulfilled.



Who was God plan perfectly fulfilled through? Christ or Adam



Quote:
And this is no small conclusion. I truly believe that millions of people today (as in the past) are convinced that they are unloved by God because of Adam. My message is: NO! God loves us more than we can possibly imagine, and Adam's fall was necessary according to God's plan for us to know how much He actually does love us! We are not a failure in His sight!



And my message is LOVE works and thinketh NO EVIL. That all the crap in this world, deaths, rapes, lies, etc. are NOT of Gods design for LOVE CANNOT do anything but LOVE.

Death, rape, lies, etc. are NOT fruit of the Spirit of God they are the fruits of the unrighteous. Make the tree good and it fruits good or make the tree evil and its fruits evil for a good tree CANNOT bring forth evil fruit.





Quote:
God gives the righteous commandments; but apparently He doesn't want us to be "realized" by simply following commandments.



Then the commandment is not but a sham.


Quote:
He has preferred to make us to know Him by Him imparting His Nature to us. There is more grace, more freedom, and absolutely NO room for boasting in this way.



And how does He impart His nature to us? Is it not through eating from the tree of LIFE?



Quote:

You make a very interesting observation. It made me think of where Paul writes in Romans 7, that when he does wrong, it's not him doing the wrong, but sin in him that does it. Paul seems to be telling us, aisi, that we are not to blame for the evil; only the wicked one (son of perdition, sin, devils, etc.). Also, "he who is dead is freed from sin." It may very well be, that at the moment of death, all that is wicked (flesh, demons, etc) are "cast off" of the man, so that he may pass to the Father through the Son.
Let's remember, it was GOD who was justifying mankind on the cross, way before anyone was "repenting."



So if sin and disobedience is not Gods design whose design is it?




Quote:
Good question. I don't think he was "perfected," there was more that he needed to go through first.
Your analogy of the clay is interesting. Jehovah's Witnesses have told me in the past that they believe (at least the ones talking with me did) that the clay has to "be willing" to be formed by God.
Personally, I think this is an absurd statement; I think the Potter knows exactly how to work the clay, any clay. Otherwise, what kind of potter is he???



Yes but working the clay does not stop the clay from trying to retain its natural form.



Quote:
We are 110 percent dependent on God. Jesus Christ was not dependent on Adam, imo.. He had the came "title" or "power" or "authority" or "office" as Adam, in that His One Act of obedience counteracted Adam's one act of disobedience. "Neutralized" comes to mind here.


Yes but you also state that Adam had to sin through disobedience in order for Christ to effect our salvation. That makes it cause and effect. Without the one the other never could have been achieved.


Quote:
Not immediately, no. Yes.


Not sure, are you saying no to the first question and yes to the second?
If so then for the first the tree of life God told Adam he could freely eat from is a sham. And for the second the commandment not to eat is a sham.

Quote:
It's not that it was God's "plan" for man to sin, as if He "forced" him to eat. He made man a way that He knew would cause him to know suffering.


And man does NOT have to wallow in sin to know suffering, Jesus who is our example proves this.
 
Old 01-14-2011, 08:46 AM
 
Location: Canada
6,643 posts, read 3,998,284 times
Reputation: 386
Quote:
Wow! That was fast! (I usually take longer to make long posts!
file:///C:/Users/Scott/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image001.gif (broken link)
)


LOL, I made the reply before I noticed you posted something further today. That is why our posts were so close to each other


Quote:
Anyways, I in fact do believe God had foreknowledge. Even man has foreknowledge. I know that if I tell a little child to not touch a hot stove, he/she will most likely do it in a short time. I believe God is even more knowledgeable in this respect. (As per the breakfast question, I don't know what to say; maybe He knows, maybe not. I do suppose that He could know it without problems. We are quite predictable creatures after all..)



The breakfast scenario is actually a perfect example brother because we are talking about God knowing what Adam would eat before he ate.



Quote:
No, the fall was not a requirement for salvation; salvation was a requirement for the fall. That is, God created the remedy before the virus.



That is the same as saying Jesus died for us before we ever sinned. And that is not according to scripture.



Quote:
No. Salvation was designed and put into place before the sin. Jesus is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.



Yes salvation was designed and put into place BEFORE Adam sinned, it is the tree of life in the middle of the garden which God said Adam could freely eat from. Remember there are two ways of salvation from sin. We can either be saved out of our sin or we can be saved from ever entering into sin.

Scripture tells us sin is of the devil, by making sin a design of God is the same as making God the devil.


Quote:
Just a parethesis: God told Adam the consequences of eating of the TOKOGE, but He didn't say anything about the Tree of Life. In fact, the Tree of Life was "in the background" of the whole account..)


The name of the tree is self evident, tree of LIFE. Remember it was the WORD of God that walked in the garden with Adam so how is it you say the tree of life was in the background.
 
Old 01-14-2011, 09:02 AM
 
Location: Italy
6,387 posts, read 5,112,960 times
Reputation: 866
Pneuma,
Your posts are making me dizzy!!

(aisi: as I see it)

Aisi, salvation was set in place (here or somewhere else, it matters not to me) before Adam was created. God's commands are right, and in order that man can learn righteousness. His command to not eat of the tree was a right command, yet He made Adam as "good" but not "perfect."

Because Adam was not perfect, all mankind was therefore with the same "dna." Christ Jesus was a repeat performance, but without eating of that same tree. That is why He was spotless; Jesus was the Adam that would've been if he had obeyed. Jesus is the Adam that you are asking me about now. Jesus was successful where Adam failed. And the "NEW dna" of Jesus Christ is beginning to fill the earth and all mankind.

God knew beforehand that Adam would fail, but He gave the command to do right anyway; and as He predicted, Adam failed. But all "according to His design."

See what I'm trying to get at?

Blessings,
brian
 
Old 01-14-2011, 09:28 AM
 
Location: Canada
6,643 posts, read 3,998,284 times
Reputation: 386
Quote:
Aisi, salvation was set in place (here or somewhere else, it matters not to me) before Adam was created. God's commands are right, and in order that man can learn righteousness. His command to not eat of the tree was a right command, yet He made Adam as "good" but not "perfect."

Because Adam was not perfect, all mankind was therefore with the same "dna." Christ Jesus was a repeat performance, but without eating of that same tree. That is why He was spotless; Jesus was the Adam that would've been if he had obeyed. Jesus is the Adam that you are asking me about now. Jesus was successful where Adam failed. And the "NEW dna" of Jesus Christ is beginning to fill the earth and all mankind.

God knew beforehand that Adam would fail, but He gave the command to do right anyway; and as He predicted, Adam failed. But all "according to His design."

See what I'm trying to get at?


Yes I understand what you are saying brother (others who have known me for a long time on these boards can tell you I once believed much as you do now), but as my post show I disagree with it now, you can believe I am being lead astray or you can believe God has given me a clearer understanding of His salvation. Myself I believe I see more clearly then I did before, Jesus' words here started me on my present understanding.

Either make the tree good and its fruits good or make the tree evil and its fruits evil, a good tree CANNOT bring forth evil fruit.

If one contemplates the implications of what Jesus is saying here then one can see that all the evils in this world are NOT of Gods design.

We also have other scriptures that state

Love thinketh no evil

Love worketh no evil

Sin is of the devil

These are just a few scriptures that if one contemplates them before the Lord they can see God has absolutely nothing to do with evil.

what concord hath Christ with Belial?

Anyway if I am making you dizzy with my posts brother it might be good to let this sit for awhile least it build up strife between us.

If you want to let it sit for now let me know and when you are ready to begin again just pm me and let me know and I will meat you on the board and we can continue.

God bless you and yours.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2018, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top