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Old 01-14-2011, 08:40 AM
 
Location: Italy
6,387 posts, read 5,107,975 times
Reputation: 866

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Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma View Post

Yes I understand what you are saying brother (others who have known me for a long time on these boards can tell you I once believed much as you do now), but as my post show I disagree with it now, you can believe I am being lead astray or you can believe God has given me a clearer understanding of His salvation. Myself I believe I see more clearly then I did before, Jesus' words here started me on my present understanding.

Either make the tree good and its fruits good or make the tree evil and its fruits evil, a good tree CANNOT bring forth evil fruit.

If one contemplates the implications of what Jesus is saying here then one can see that all the evils in this world are NOT of Gods design.

We also have other scriptures that state

Love thinketh no evil

Love worketh no evil

Sin is of the devil

These are just a few scriptures that if one contemplates them before the Lord they can see God has absolutely nothing to do with evil.

what concord hath Christ with Belial?

Anyway if I am making you dizzy with my posts brother it might be good to let this sit for awhile least it build up strife between us.

If you want to let it sit for now let me know and when you are ready to begin again just pm me and let me know and I will meat you on the board and we can continue.

God bless you and yours.
My dear pneuma!
I get dizzy only when the posts are loooong!! (We also need a different format for conversing, these forums are quite "cumbersome" when lots of topic material is being discussed!) But I am in no way "arguing" with you or anyone else; I just want to share and grow from others. And I think we're doing that right now. (Some threads here turn into arguing matches, which I don't like.)

So I'm enjoying this discussion w/you; actually, I'm thrilled that someone here is interested in engaging in it..!

I know what you are saying about God and evil being separate things, unable to "mix."
At the same time, we know that God made all things, and that there is nothing made that was made without His hand in it. Evil is one of those things, is it not??

Jesus Christ came as a man, in flesh. The devil tempted Him as well, and on the cross He became sin for us, did He not?

Blessings,
brian

 
Old 01-14-2011, 08:55 AM
 
Location: Canada
6,643 posts, read 3,992,180 times
Reputation: 386
Quote:
I get dizzy only when the posts are loooong!! (We also need a different format for conversing, these forums are quite "cumbersome" when lots of topic material is being discussed!) But I am in no way "arguing" with you or anyone else; I just want to share and grow from others. And I think we're doing that right now. (Some threads here turn into arguing matches, which I don't like.)



Ok, we will try to keep the post shorter

Quote:
So I'm enjoying this discussion w/you; actually, I'm thrilled that someone here is interested in engaging in it..!
file:///C:/Users/Scott/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image001.gif (broken link)


Good as I have been enjoying the discussion also.


Quote:
I know what you are saying about God and evil being separate things, unable to "mix."
At the same time, we know that God made all things, and that there is nothing made that was made without His hand in it. Evil is one of those things, is it not??


No evil is NOT one of those things. When the scriptures say God created all things they qualify the manner in which God made them. And God saw everything that He had made and it was GOOD.

Everything that is GOOD comes from God.

But we know that evil exists in this world so where did it come from?

Scripture tells us this also

They say God sowed GOOD seed in the earth and a enemy came along and sowed tares(evil seed) among the wheat.


Quote:
Jesus Christ came as a man, in flesh. The devil tempted Him as well, and on the cross He became sin for us, did He not?


Yes but I am missing your point.
 
Old 01-14-2011, 09:12 AM
 
Location: Italy
6,387 posts, read 5,107,975 times
Reputation: 866
You said that "God has nothing to do with evil," but Jesus Christ became sin for our justification. The very thing which you are saying God has nothing to do with, He got His hands "dirty" with in order to make us clean!!

At any rate, I don't want to get into a discussion about where evil came from, since it is not relevant here, imo. What seems clear to me today, is that Christ has effectively replaced Adam. The first Adam is gone, dead, nailed to the cross. The bad dna has been replaced, and humanity is slowly coming around, until God has filled all things with Himself. This is why I can believe that all men will be made righteous.

Jesus, planned from the foundation of the world, before Adam was created, and has caused mankind to be "born again." (Typically, we hear the statement that each person must make a choice to be born again. I believe that Jesus' death and resurrection caused the re-birth of all mankind. Again, God doing the sanctifying, not man's own attempts to "get right with God" as we so often hear.)

Your thoughts?

Blessings,
Brian
 
Old 01-14-2011, 09:14 AM
 
Location: Italy
6,387 posts, read 5,107,975 times
Reputation: 866
Or think of it like this: Jesus became evil, thereby making mankind good!

Scandalous!!

Blessings!
Brian
 
Old 01-14-2011, 09:26 AM
 
Location: Canada
6,643 posts, read 3,992,180 times
Reputation: 386
Quote:
Originally Posted by ahigherway View Post
You said that "God has nothing to do with evil," but Jesus Christ became sin for our justification. The very thing which you are saying God has nothing to do with, He got His hands "dirty" with in order to make us clean!!

At any rate, I don't want to get into a discussion about where evil came from, since it is not relevant here, imo. What seems clear to me today, is that Christ has effectively replaced Adam. The first Adam is gone, dead, nailed to the cross. The bad dna has been replaced, and humanity is slowly coming around, until God has filled all things with Himself. This is why I can believe that all men will be made righteous.

Jesus, planned from the foundation of the world, before Adam was created, and has caused mankind to be "born again." (Typically, we hear the statement that each person must make a choice to be born again. I believe that Jesus' death and resurrection caused the re-birth of all mankind. Again, God doing the sanctifying, not man's own attempts to "get right with God" as we so often hear.)

Your thoughts?

Blessings,
Brian
Brian Jesus did not become sin after the manner you present it here, if He became sin in this manner he is of the devil for sin is of the devil. The scripture you are relating to is refering to Christ becoming a sacrifice for sin, not sin incarnate.

One cannot choose to be born again just as one does not choose to sin (unless willfully) one can only choose which tree one eats from. Once that choice has been made one will bare the fruit of the tree one ate from.

One thing we have to keep in mind brother is that not all sin is = there is a sin unto death and there is a sin not unto death, one is completely forgiven the other (disobedience) must reap what that one sows.
 
Old 01-14-2011, 09:40 AM
 
Location: Canada
6,643 posts, read 3,992,180 times
Reputation: 386
Quote:
At any rate, I don't want to get into a discussion about where evil came from, since it is not relevant here, imo.

Here is a problem we are facing brother if we are to carry on this conversation. You seem to want (I could be wrong, probably am) to look at only small portions of what I am speaking of. I cannot do that brother I have to take into account everything I have ever read and it has to mesh together as a weaved rug.

You don't see how where evil comes from is revelent, but to me that is half of the picture we are discussing. For if God designed everything as you see it then a part of His design is evil. And as those scriptures I gave you show a good tree CANNOT bring forth evil fruit.
 
Old 01-14-2011, 09:49 AM
 
Location: Italy
6,387 posts, read 5,107,975 times
Reputation: 866
Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma View Post
Brian Jesus did not become sin after the manner you present it here, if He became sin in this manner he is of the devil for sin is of the devil. The scripture you are relating to is refering to Christ becoming a sacrifice for sin, not sin incarnate.

One cannot choose to be born again just as one does not choose to sin (unless willfully) one can only choose which tree one eats from. Once that choice has been made one will bare the fruit of the tree one ate from.

One thing we have to keep in mind brother is that not all sin is = there is a sin unto death and there is a sin not unto death, one is completely forgiven the other (disobedience) must reap what that one sows.
I agree that we cannot choose to be born again. Jesus never said that we must choose to be born again, and the disciples never preached such a message. They simply told people to "repent and believe." And God gave some faith to do just that.

I was thinking of this verse: "For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." 2 Cor. 5.21

Jesus Christ became sin. (I believe that the expression "of the devil" has to do with "in participation/agreement/accord with the devil." And of course, Jesus was not in agreement with the devil!) He was pure, and became defiled willingly for the good of mankind. By doing this, He purified mankind, because death "couldn't hold Him." He supernaturally purified us who were without hope, since we could never "get out of the loop." He broke the curse. That's why He is Lord of all.

What more could we ask for??

I know that you don't like the idea that God has anything to do with evil, pneuma. But He had to in order for us to know Him. (That's how He planned it.) His Son was blameless; He did it!

Suffering is part of the plan for us, in order that we might become fully like Him.

Rambling a bit...

?

Blessings,
brian
 
Old 01-14-2011, 10:01 AM
 
Location: Canada
6,643 posts, read 3,992,180 times
Reputation: 386
Quote:
Jesus Christ became sin. (I believe that the expression "of the devil" has to do with "in participation/agreement/accord with the devil." And of course, Jesus was not in agreement with the devil!) He was pure, and became defiled willingly for the good of mankind. By doing this, He purified mankind, because death "couldn't hold Him." He supernaturally purified us who were without hope, since we could never "get out of the loop." He broke the curse. That's why He is Lord of all.


Jesus never became defiled brother, I don't believe you are interpreting that scripture correctly.


Quote:
I know that you don't like the idea that God has anything to do with evil, pneuma. But He had to in order for us to know Him. (That's how He planned it.) His Son was blameless; He did it!


It is not that I don't like it, it is what the scriptures tell me.

Your telling me a good tree can bring forth evil fruit because God planned it all out that way, scripture tells me otherwise


Quote:
Suffering is part of the plan for us, in order that we might become fully like Him.


And again there are two ways of suffering, as the evil doer and for righteousness sake, your lumping them together and calling them the same.
 
Old 01-14-2011, 10:06 AM
 
Location: Italy
6,387 posts, read 5,107,975 times
Reputation: 866
Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma View Post

Your telling me a good tree can bring forth evil fruit because God planned it all out that way, scripture tells me otherwise

Can you explain a bit more?


Peace,
brian
 
Old 01-14-2011, 10:25 AM
 
Location: Canada
6,643 posts, read 3,992,180 times
Reputation: 386
Quote:
Originally Posted by ahigherway View Post
Can you explain a bit more?


Peace,
brian
Brian, I will but it will have to be later as company just showed up, got to run, see you later, probably tomorrow
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