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Old 01-13-2011, 02:17 PM
 
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At the request of scgraham I am starting this thread to avoid derailing his.

Basically the claim is as a believer that through Jesus Christ I believe God will save all mankind, my belief in Jesus has not saved me.

I disagree, based upon Jesus being the only way.

What arguments, then, are valid enough to give evidence that I am damned to the eternal torment scgraham believes in based on the rejection of said eternal torment and NOT a rejection of Jesus as my Saviour?
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Old 01-13-2011, 05:09 PM
 
Location: Florida -
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The only reason that Salvation and Condemnation get complicated is because some people attempt to bend scripture to say something else … and keep running into scripture that says otherwise; ... for example, that everyone will ultimately be saved. The criteria for Salvation and eternal Life is pretty clear and simple … as is the condition of those who seek another way:

John 3:16-18 --- 16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

All the double-mindedness in the world will not change God's simple plan! Why is that so difficult to understand???
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Old 01-13-2011, 05:19 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phazelwood View Post
.

What arguments, then, are valid enough to give evidence that I am damned to the eternal torment scgraham believes in based on the rejection of said eternal torment and NOT a rejection of Jesus as my Saviour?
You don't believe in the real Jesus because the real Jesus died to save you from eternal torment.




..for instance.
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Old 01-13-2011, 06:20 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jghorton View Post
The only reason that Salvation and Condemnation get complicated is because some people attempt to bend scripture to say something else Ö and keep running into scripture that says otherwise; ... for example, that everyone will ultimately be saved. The criteria for Salvation and eternal Life is pretty clear and simple Ö as is the condition of those who seek another way:

John 3:16-18 --- 16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of Godís one and only Son.

All the double-mindedness in the world will not change God's simple plan! Why is that so difficult to understand???

So you do not agree that one must believe in eternal torment to be saved?
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Old 01-13-2011, 06:25 PM
 
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Originally Posted by legoman View Post
You don't believe in the real Jesus because the real Jesus died to save you from eternal torment.




..for instance.

Does anyone who would agree that this is a valid point have scripture to show that since I believe in the Jesus of the holy Bible that somehow I am not believing in the real Jesus?

I would argue that belief in Christ of the holy Bible does not necessarily mean at that instant that I would know everything the bible means.

Therefore my disagreement about hell is simply something I have not learned the truth about yet. How then, would that show that I believe in a fake Jesus?
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Old 01-13-2011, 10:32 PM
 
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You asked a good question and I've wondered about that, too. Some people say that it's simple - at the point of God consciousness one must make a decision whether to accept His Son or not, and choosing by your own volition to believe is all it takes to be saved. However, it turns out that they think if you don't believe God will burn people forever, that your "decision" wasn't good enough.

Others say that you must make this decision, plus behave very well from now on and until the end of your life to be saved. Then it turns out, that even if you love God and love one another as yourself, and live as sinlessly as possible, that you were not behaving well enough to be saved if you didn't believe God would burn people for eternity.

To those who believe in this way, can you quote a scripture that says you have to believe God will burn people forever in order to not end up burning yourself?
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Old 01-13-2011, 10:46 PM
 
Location: Somewhere
6,370 posts, read 5,649,365 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phazelwood View Post
At the request of scgraham I am starting this thread to avoid derailing his.

Basically the claim is as a believer that through Jesus Christ I believe God will save all mankind, my belief in Jesus has not saved me.

I disagree, based upon Jesus being the only way.

What arguments, then, are valid enough to give evidence that I am damned to the eternal torment scgraham believes in based on the rejection of said eternal torment and NOT a rejection of Jesus as my Saviour?
You can ONLY be saved by Jesus if Jesus is in you putting down sin in your OWN flesh. That through you His nature is felt by others around you. That through you He is touching the lives of others in way beneficial towards them for their salvation.

We are not saved Because of Jesus but BY Jesus. He is actively changing and manifesting Himself in those that He has given to believe in Him. Such that they are transforming into Him. It is not suddent but gradual. They are putting on Christ Jesus. As they put Him on they will begin to propogate that goodness towards those around them. They will infect others with the gladness and confidence that is in the Wonderful Gospel of their Salvation. They will become filled with a love towards others at the expense of self love and self glorification. To be saved is to have the Eternal Lord making His Power known thru you in a manner that destroys the old nature in others.

God bless and Praise our Lord Jesus Christ.
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Old 01-14-2011, 07:25 AM
 
Location: Italy
6,387 posts, read 5,130,904 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phazelwood View Post
At the request of scgraham I am starting this thread to avoid derailing his.

Basically the claim is as a believer that through Jesus Christ I believe God will save all mankind, my belief in Jesus has not saved me.

I disagree, based upon Jesus being the only way.

What arguments, then, are valid enough to give evidence that I am damned to the eternal torment scgraham believes in based on the rejection of said eternal torment and NOT a rejection of Jesus as my Saviour?
In general, religions will accept you or reject you based on certain criteria. There are general doctrines (trinity, Mary, Son of God, etc.) which are "untouchable." If you don't agree, you're out.

Then there are "minor" doctrines (was Paul a woman-hater, was he a self-declared prophet, who the beast w/10 horns really is, etc) which won't get you kicked out, just put to the side.

I suppose that some fundamentalist groups would kick you out for believing that all will be saved; maybe because if all will be saved, they would feel "less special"..?

It's often not as "easy" as "just believe in Jesus Christ;" there are usually "qualifiers" in fine print... And many have been kicked out because of this fine print.

Blessings,
brian
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Old 01-14-2011, 07:44 AM
 
5,925 posts, read 5,701,299 times
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Originally Posted by Bright Hope for Tomorrow View Post
You asked a good question and I've wondered about that, too. Some people say that it's simple - at the point of God consciousness one must make a decision whether to accept His Son or not, and choosing by your own volition to believe is all it takes to be saved. However, it turns out that they think if you don't believe God will burn people forever, that your "decision" wasn't good enough.

Others say that you must make this decision, plus behave very well from now on and until the end of your life to be saved. Then it turns out, that even if you love God and love one another as yourself, and live as sinlessly as possible, that you were not behaving well enough to be saved if you didn't believe God would burn people for eternity.

To those who believe in this way, can you quote a scripture that says you have to believe God will burn people forever in order to not end up burning yourself?

His argument seems to be that unless you believe everything in the bible 100% correctly you cannot be saved, I would argue that then no one ever has been saved and no one ever will be, based upon that.

Fortunatly, as far as the bible is concerned, my belief in Jesus is sufficient and no human is going to decide otherwise.
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Old 01-14-2011, 07:53 AM
 
Location: Italy
6,387 posts, read 5,130,904 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phazelwood View Post
His argument seems to be that unless you believe everything in the bible 100% correctly you cannot be saved, I would argue that then no one ever has been saved and no one ever will be, based upon that.

Fortunatly, as far as the bible is concerned, my belief in Jesus is sufficient and no human is going to decide otherwise.
Yes. It's not just whether you believe the Bible is 100 percent true or not, but how it's interpreted. That's pretty much turning people into robots.

Jesus spoke of hell; this is true. HOWEVER, He had the Spirit without measure, and knew much more about what He was saying than our modern-day preachers who "think" they understand Jesus' words unfalteringly. But until they have the Spirit without measure as well (which they most likely won't) they will make mistakes, and peddle it as "truth."

Aisi..

Blessings,
brian
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