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Old 01-14-2011, 12:39 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerwade View Post
But who can endure the day of His coming?
And who can stand when He appears?

"For He is like a refiner's fire and launderers' soap."


...he also shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, that hath been mingled unmixed in the cup of His anger, and he shall
be tormented
(basanizo) in fire and brimstone before the holy messengers, and before the Lamb... (Revelation 14:10)

 
Old 01-14-2011, 05:22 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
I see now, Ilene, that it is absolutely IMPOSSIBLE to understand the meaning of scripture without going back to the original Greek. I mean, whoda thunk that that petrifying word, "tormented" actually means polishing and refining as with precious metals.
Thrill... you have really been bringing a lot of smiles to my face these past weeks. God bless you, bro.
 
Old 01-14-2011, 05:38 AM
 
3,553 posts, read 4,371,783 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
Seems Eternal Torment vs. Universal Redemption is the only game in town at the moment so I thought I'd toss this out:

From a prominent ET website:



Now what the ET proponents of this website fail to tell the readers is that basanizo is a very ubiquitous word in the Greek language. For example:

Matthew 14:22-24:



So "tossed" in this sense means the same thing as tossing a salad.

Now the Greek Septuagint at Ezekiel 3:20:



Now here's where it really gets interesting. Basanos meant a "touchstone", something which was used to test the purity of gold, silver and other metals. In actual fact, it was used to denote an examination. Check this out:



Further:



From here it is just a short leap over to the granddaddy and most beloved of all ET'ers verses, Matthew 25:46



As mentioned in other threads, the Greek word for punishment used here is
"kolasis" which means "punishment for the correction of the offender", not a penal punishment that goes on for eternity, as ET'ers so blithely love to point out.

I think the reader gets the idea. When Greek usage for these supposedly horrifying ideologies is revealed, the real truths of what the gospel writers were trying to convey comes into focus and ET basically just melts away.

So, in summary, we have "basanizo" (torment) being closely linked to "kolasis" (an age-corrective punishment) , hence a very strong indication that the author of the terrifying Revelation 20:10, "tormented day and night forever and ever" really meant an "age-enduring torment of a corrective nature" in which the sinner would eventually be restored to fellowship with God.
Actually, I would love to weigh in on this subject. First off, you take the word Kolasis as meaning (an age-corrective punishment), when in fact the verb root means 'to cut or lop off, or to prune'. Kolazo= mistranslated in English as punish.

Does this term line up with scripture? Where? Where does this word appear?

The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

What is the punishment, if the punishment is to remove, or lop off, or prune? Does anyone speak of this, from a plant perspective? Paul does, quite nicely.

But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.
You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in."
Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

Now, since we can plainly see, and you, yourself agree that the first definition is always the most common usage, which most scholars agree with, then why does punishment equate with the word kolasis, when it is taken straight from Kolazo the noun. Why would the noun differ in definition from the verb, of the same word???

Now, once again look at Jesus' Words:

"These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

So, is the pruning, or cutting off permanant? How does Paul say? He says IF they do not continue in unbelief, they will be grafted in again. Does it say this happens ANYWHERE after death of the flesh? No!

And since we are talking about this definition from a landscaping perspective, do a word search on the word ekkopto, which is more severe than pruning. It means to cut down, or cut off. Check it out.

"Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. "So then, you will know them by their fruits. "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

See anything about punishment in this passage? It says what it says, plain as can be. And it gets even more severe when you think abut the gravity of the situation. Those people are CUT DOWN, CUT OFF, GONE. They will NOT ENTER the Kingdom of heaven, where LIFE ABIDES, and instead are left with nothing except death, and eternal seperation from the Father. Cut off, is cut off. Want to be grafted? Then we ALL need to start living like we do, instead of talking like we do.

Peace,

Tony
 
Old 01-14-2011, 07:27 AM
 
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One more "chat room" , off topic, offensive post and this thread is closed
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Old 01-14-2011, 07:36 AM
 
1,838 posts, read 1,931,084 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
But I don't recall ever mentioning the word, basanizo so how could you have referred to basanizo when it was never even brought up? You never once referenced anything having to do with the relationship between kolasis and basanizo in the other posts. This is astonishing. Seven replies and not one addresses the question I raised in the OP.
maybe they havnt answered it because they now have to think that maybe eternal torment dosent actually mean eternal torment,but something a bit more mercifull.or should i say alot more considering how unmerciful eternal torment is..on a scale from one to a hundred ,it wuld be infinity plus infinity plus infinity devided by 4 multiplied by infinity.what ever that number is.
 
Old 01-14-2011, 09:17 AM
 
10,179 posts, read 10,541,144 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by .sparrow. View Post
Thrill... you have really been bringing a lot of smiles to my face these past weeks. God bless you, bro.
Thank you much, sis. And remember, "His eye is on the .sparrow".
 
Old 01-14-2011, 09:24 AM
 
10,179 posts, read 10,541,144 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dobeable View Post
maybe they havnt answered it because they now have to think that maybe eternal torment dosent actually mean eternal torment,but something a bit more mercifull.or should i say alot more considering how unmerciful eternal torment is..on a scale from one to a hundred ,it wuld be infinity plus infinity plus infinity devided by 4 multiplied by infinity.what ever that number is.
Wouldn't surprise me a bit, dobeable. Bluster is always a dead giveaway.
 
Old 01-14-2011, 09:46 AM
 
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Are we or are we not talking about the OP? I am waiting for a response.
 
Old 01-14-2011, 10:02 AM
 
3,553 posts, read 4,371,783 times
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Quote:
So, in summary, we have "basanizo" (torment) being closely linked to "kolasis" (an age-corrective punishment), hence a very strong indication that the author of the terrifying Revelation 20:10, "tormented day and night forever and ever" really meant an "age-enduring torment of a corrective nature" in which the sinner would eventually be restored to fellowship with God.
I would actually like to refute your conclusions.

First, basanizo, which is translated torment is more like a testing. You said this yourself, right?

Quote:
Now here's where it really gets interesting. Basanos meant a "touchstone", something which was used to test the purity of gold, silver and other metals. In actual fact, it was used to denote an examination. Check this out:


Quote:
Strong's Greek Cognate: #931 básanos – originally, a black, silicon-based stone used as "a touchstone" to test the purity of precious metals (like silver and gold). See 928 (basanízō).
So, if basanizo is a testing, such as to test the quality of gold, siver, etc.
Would it not stand to reason that a 'torment' would also be the same testing? What would the goldsmith do if the test failed? Then, you have the kolasis, which is to 'cut off', or to prune away.

So, there you have it. First the testing, then if the test fails, then you are removed. Is there ANY scripture for this? YES!

According to the grace of God which was given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building on it. But each man must be careful how he builds on it.
For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work.
If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward.
If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
Do you not know that you are a temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?

Does this say everyone will be saved? Or only those who built on the ALREADY established foundation of Jesus Christ?

The fire will test? Test, as in metals?
1) to test, examine, prove, scrutinise (to see whether a thing is genuine or not), as metals

Wow, I love studying the Word!! Praise be His Holy Name!

Peace,

Tony

PS.

What happens when you have not the Foundational Stone of Jesus Christ? What then becomes of torment, and punishment? Is there any, or is there just nothing, as in dead? I believe it is dead, forevermore.
Also, what happens when one claims to be a Christian, yet fails to even have the basic of the testing, which to have Jesus Christ as Lord, King, Etc. Then what happens to also that person? I again believe they are dead having not been born again in the first place.
 
Old 01-14-2011, 10:38 AM
 
10,179 posts, read 10,541,144 times
Reputation: 3017
Quote:
Originally Posted by HotinAZ View Post
Actually, I would love to weigh in on this subject. First off, you take the word Kolasis as meaning (an age-corrective punishment), when in fact the verb root means 'to cut or lop off, or to prune'. Kolazo= mistranslated in English as punish.

Does this term line up with scripture? Where? Where does this word appear?

The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

What is the punishment, if the punishment is to remove, or lop off, or prune? Does anyone speak of this, from a plant perspective? Paul does, quite nicely.

But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.
You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in."
Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

Now, since we can plainly see, and you, yourself agree that the first definition is always the most common usage, which most scholars agree with, then why does punishment equate with the word kolasis, when it is taken straight from Kolazo the noun. Why would the noun differ in definition from the verb, of the same word???

Now, once again look at Jesus' Words:

"These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

So, is the pruning, or cutting off permanant? How does Paul say? He says IF they do not continue in unbelief, they will be grafted in again. Does it say this happens ANYWHERE after death of the flesh? No!

And since we are talking about this definition from a landscaping perspective, do a word search on the word ekkopto, which is more severe than pruning. It means to cut down, or cut off. Check it out.

"Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. "So then, you will know them by their fruits. "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

See anything about punishment in this passage? It says what it says, plain as can be. And it gets even more severe when you think abut the gravity of the situation. Those people are CUT DOWN, CUT OFF, GONE. They will NOT ENTER the Kingdom of heaven, where LIFE ABIDES, and instead are left with nothing except death, and eternal seperation from the Father. Cut off, is cut off. Want to be grafted? Then we ALL need to start living like we do, instead of talking like we do.

Peace,

Tony
Excellent analysis, Hot. I would love to weigh in on your weigh-in. We sound like a couple of boxers, don't we?

The confusion results from one word having so many definitions as I pointed out in the OP. And you're right; there is a correlation between the verses having to do with "cutting off". And you would likely be right if Matthew had deliberately chosen the verb, kolazo in 25:46 whose first definition is "to lop or prune, as trees and wings" and its third definition is "to chastise, correct, punishment".

But Matthew instead chose to use the noun, kolasis and now suddenly the definitions change dramatically, being that the only definition given by Strong for this noun is "correction, punishment, penalty". It's that noun-adjective, corrective/correction that is throwing a monkey wrench into the works.

If Matthew knew there was any possibility he was going to give his readers the wrong idea about the type of punishment the goats were going to endure, I think he certainly would have chosen kolazo so as not to. Put another way, if Matthew had intended the reader to understand that this punishment was going to be an everlasting punishment of the penal type, where the guard locks up the prisoner and throws away the key, I'm certain Matthew would have chosen kolazo, though even then some confusion would have ensued anyway because kolazo can also be interpreted as "chastisement" (remember definition No. 3.

Here's the $64,000 question, at least to me:

Why, then, did he deliberately choose the noun, kolasis, which we both agree the definition is a punishment of a corrective nature, to describe the nature of the punishment for the goats?

Remember also that "to prune" has a good connotation as well as a bad one and the line between which connotation is being used is so razor thin as to be nearly indecipherable.
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