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Old 01-14-2011, 11:13 AM
 
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Friends, I am too conflicted about this matter of ET vs. Ann. vs UR. I will refrain from future commentary here and elsewhere on this topic.

 
Old 01-14-2011, 11:14 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
Excellent analysis, Hot. I would love to weigh in on your weigh-in. We sound like a couple of boxers, don't we?
Good analogy, but I love diving into the Word like this. It took many, many years to come to my understanding, with much prayer and searching. So, I enjoy discussions like this.

Quote:
The confusion results from one word having so many definitions as I pointed out in the OP. And you're right; there is a correlation between the verses having to do with "cutting off". And you would likely be right if Matthew had deliberately chosen the verb, kolazo in 25:46 whose first definition is "to lop or prune, as trees and wings" and its third definition is "to chastise, correct, punishment".

But Matthew instead chose to use the noun, kolasis and now suddenly the definitions change dramatically, being that the only definition given by Strong for this noun is "correction, punishment, penalty". It's that noun-adjective, corrective/correction that is throwing a monkey wrench into the works.
Actually, it is only confusion if you let it be that way. First off, the verb kolazo is the 'root word' from which we get kolasis. It is the verb by which the noun is made. The action, made into a thing. So, then we must use the root of the word, kolazo, which the translators failed to do, in order to get the meaning of the noun, kolasis. Don't you find it strange they left out ALL the other definitions, and kept punishment as the only definition? I don't, and see it as deliberate.


Quote:
If Matthew knew there was any possibility he was going to give his readers the wrong idea about the type of punishment the goats were going to endure, I think he certainly would have chosen kolazo so as not to. Put another way, if Matthew had intended the reader to understand that this punishment was going to be an everlasting punishment of the penal type, where the guard locks up the prisoner and throws away the key, I'm certain Matthew would have chosen kolazo, though even then some confusion would have ensued anyway because kolazo can also be interpreted as "chastisement" (remember definition No. 3.
Matthew could not use the word kolazo, because now you are trying to use a verb in a noun's place. Which is why the 2 words are interchangable. And by this Light, should be used interchangably in meaning as well. Right?

Quote:
Here's the $64,000 question, at least to me:

Why, then, did he deliberately choose the noun, kolasis, which we both agree the definition is a punishment of a corrective nature, to describe the nature of the punishment for the goats?
I believe I answered it, for now.

Quote:
Remember also that "to prune" has a good connotation as well as a bad one and the line between which connotation is being used is so razor thin as to be nearly indecipherable.
That is why I used Paul's description of the foundation stone, being Jesus Christ, as the backing for the analysis. Also the grafting in and out of the vine. Otherwise, we could speculate as to the outcome of those individuals who are NOT saved, yet may pass through the Fire that tests. Or are saved, yet their fruits are tested as well. It also could be why Rev 20:11-15 speaks of deeds being judged in order to make it in the BOL.
 
Old 01-14-2011, 11:18 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
Friends, I am too conflicted about this matter of ET vs. Ann. vs UR. I will refrain from future commentary here and elsewhere on this topic.
Why? It was just starting to get interesting. We are both learning, and how does one learn except to ask questions, and receive answers?

I can, as well as a lot of us,,see that you are confused about this. I have read you preach on ET, as well as CI, or ANN. It also seemed you were STRONGLY leaning towards UR as your final destination. So, this is why I have elected to chime in. This way, we can both learn something. I am not dead set on my beliefs, because really NO ONE knows the final outcome of the lost, or the saved, and what it is they must pass through on the 'other-side'.

BUT, I guarantee the Spirit will lead us all in the right direction, even if we must give pause to the other doctrines. Which I have.

Peace brother,

Tony
 
Old 01-14-2011, 01:05 PM
 
10,183 posts, read 10,549,080 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HotinAZ View Post
Why? It was just starting to get interesting. We are both learning, and how does one learn except to ask questions, and receive answers?

I can, as well as a lot of us,,see that you are confused about this. I have read you preach on ET, as well as CI, or ANN. It also seemed you were STRONGLY leaning towards UR as your final destination. So, this is why I have elected to chime in. This way, we can both learn something. I am not dead set on my beliefs, because really NO ONE knows the final outcome of the lost, or the saved, and what it is they must pass through on the 'other-side'.

BUT, I guarantee the Spirit will lead us all in the right direction, even if we must give pause to the other doctrines. Which I have.

Peace brother,

Tony
I can only say that I was led to my decision after reading a compelling defense of ET on another forum and it is apparent to me that I am like that wavering ship described by James and therefore, in good conscience, cannot defend any position without taking a chance that I'd be leading lurking sheep astray. Peace to you and to the others as well.
 
Old 01-14-2011, 01:20 PM
 
Location: East Coast
30,186 posts, read 19,981,427 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
I can only say that I was led to my decision after reading a compelling defense of ET on another forum and it is apparent to me that I am like that wavering ship described by James and therefore, in good conscience, cannot defend any position without taking a chance that I'd be leading lurking sheep astray. Peace to you and to the others as well.
Thrill i do not see you as confused, but earnestly seeking by the God given desire in you to know the truth, your ship will sooner rather than later find safe harbor.Land ahoy brother.

Ps those waves that are bouncing your ship around are caused by every wind of doctrine (the doctrines of man), that knows your en route to the truth.
 
Old 01-14-2011, 01:22 PM
 
Location: Pikeville, Ky.
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Thrill, many times it is best after absorbing all the information available to us from our brothers and sisters and others to just relax, be a little quiet, a little patient, a little prayerful and trust the Holy Spirit to speak by way of our heart and soul.

Probably won't be a big explosive awakening , but a slowly growing peace and confidence in what you" hear spiritually"
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Old 01-14-2011, 01:38 PM
 
3,553 posts, read 4,373,213 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
I can only say that I was led to my decision after reading a compelling defense of ET on another forum and it is apparent to me that I am like that wavering ship described by James and therefore, in good conscience, cannot defend any position without taking a chance that I'd be leading lurking sheep astray. Peace to you and to the others as well.
I honestly do not see you defending anything anymore, except Jesus Christ as Lord. What is it you are doing, is seekig Wisdom, which can only come from above. Either in the form of another bother/sister, or by the leading of the Holy Spirit. Don't give up on God though, for He hasn't given up on you. He actually loves this about us humans, which is why He gave us the greatest of gifts. One of which is human reason, which He desires from you.

As long as your heart is right, and your love is strong, for Him alone as God,,,then 'Come, let us reason!' saith the Lord.
 
Old 01-14-2011, 02:14 PM
 
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Thrillobyte, just do the following:

1. Trust God
2. Keep praying
3. Keep studying
4. Follow the fruits of the spirit: joy, peace, love.

And be still sometimes.
 
Old 01-14-2011, 03:09 PM
 
20,299 posts, read 15,651,035 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
Seems Eternal Torment vs. Universal Redemption is the only game in town at the moment so I thought I'd toss this out:

From a prominent ET website:



Now what the ET proponents of this website fail to tell the readers is that basanizo is a very ubiquitous word in the Greek language. For example:

Matthew 14:22-24:



So "tossed" in this sense means the same thing as tossing a salad.

Now the Greek Septuagint at Ezekiel 3:20:



Now here's where it really gets interesting. Basanos meant a "touchstone", something which was used to test the purity of gold, silver and other metals. In actual fact, it was used to denote an examination. Check this out:



Further:



From here it is just a short leap over to the granddaddy and most beloved of all ET'ers verses, Matthew 25:46



As mentioned in other threads, the Greek word for punishment used here is
"kolasis" which means "punishment for the correction of the offender", not a penal punishment that goes on for eternity, as ET'ers so blithely love to point out.

I think the reader gets the idea. When Greek usage for these supposedly horrifying ideologies is revealed, the real truths of what the gospel writers were trying to convey comes into focus and ET basically just melts away.

So, in summary, we have "basanizo" (torment) being closely linked to "kolasis" (an age-corrective punishment), hence a very strong indication that the author of the terrifying Revelation 20:10, "tormented day and night forever and ever" really meant an "age-enduring torment of a corrective nature" in which the sinner would eventually be restored to fellowship with God.
In my thread The Orthodox View of Hell is correct in that Hell is a place of Conscious Everlasting Torment the focus was on the following link. Evangelicals and the Annihilation of Hell Part One and Evangelicals and the Annihilation of Hell Part Two

The following is an Excerpt from part one.

'The Nature of Punishment in Revelation 14:9-11; 20:10. These texts describe the nature of the punishment as "torment." The words used in these texts are forms of the Greek word basanizo. As Thayer states, basanizo means "to vex with grievous pains (of body or mind), to torment." [49] Likewise, Arndt and Gingrich say that basanizo means "to torture, torment," and may apply to either physical or mental vexation. [50] When we examine the uses of the verb basanizo and its various noun forms throughout the New Testament, we see that great pain and conscious misery are in view, not annihilation or cessation of consciousness. For example, the centurion's sick servant is grievously tormented (deinos basanizomenos) by his palsy (Matt. 8:6). Revelation 12:2 uses the verb to describe the pains of childbirth. In 2 Peter 2:8, righteous Lot is described as tormented (ebasanizen) in his soul by the wicked deeds of the Sodomites. In Luke 16:23 and 28, the plural noun "torments" (basanoi) is used to describe the rich man's conscious suffering in Hades. Indeed, in verse 28 Hades is described as "the place of torment" (ho topos tou basanou).'
Evangelicals and the Annihilation of Hell


The unbeliever in hell is not being purified by testing. Human righteousness can never be made acceptable to God. Human righteousness is the very basis of the unbelievers condemnation (Rev 20:11-15). Having died in rejection of Christ as Savior he never received the imputation of God's righteousness, and so was never declared righteous - justified. Therefore, he has only his own relative righteousness which God must always reject. Therefore, the unbeliever in Gehenna will remain there for eternity.
 
Old 01-14-2011, 03:19 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,381,502 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
In my thread The Orthodox View of Hell is correct in that Hell is a place of Conscious Everlasting Torment the focus was on the following link. Evangelicals and the Annihilation of Hell Part One and Evangelicals and the Annihilation of Hell Part Two

The following is an Excerpt from part one.

'The Nature of Punishment in Revelation 14:9-11; 20:10. These texts describe the nature of the punishment as "torment." The words used in these texts are forms of the Greek word basanizo. As Thayer states, basanizo means "to vex with grievous pains (of body or mind), to torment." [49] Likewise, Arndt and Gingrich say that basanizo means "to torture, torment," and may apply to either physical or mental vexation. [50] When we examine the uses of the verb basanizo and its various noun forms throughout the New Testament, we see that great pain and conscious misery are in view, not annihilation or cessation of consciousness. For example, the centurion's sick servant is grievously tormented (deinos basanizomenos) by his palsy (Matt. 8:6). Revelation 12:2 uses the verb to describe the pains of childbirth. In 2 Peter 2:8, righteous Lot is described as tormented (ebasanizen) in his soul by the wicked deeds of the Sodomites. In Luke 16:23 and 28, the plural noun "torments" (basanoi) is used to describe the rich man's conscious suffering in Hades. Indeed, in verse 28 Hades is described as "the place of torment" (ho topos tou basanou).'
Evangelicals and the Annihilation of Hell


The unbeliever in hell is not being purified by testing. Human righteousness can never be made acceptable to God. Human righteousness is the very basis of the unbelievers condemnation (Rev 20:11-15). Having died in rejection of Christ as Savior he never received the imputation of God's righteousness, and so was never declared righteous - justified. Therefore, he has only his own relative righteousness which God must always reject. Therefore, the unbeliever in Gehenna will remain there for eternity.
How does God purify people? How does he refine them on this planet (especially believers)? What is the purpose of refinement?

(and I think AlabamaStorm made a perfect, simple post here on the subject of imputation of righteousness to the impious: http://www.city-data.com/forum/17406222-post412.html )
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