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Old 01-13-2011, 01:28 PM
 
10,177 posts, read 10,538,351 times
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Seems Eternal Torment vs. Universal Redemption is the only game in town at the moment so I thought I'd toss this out:

From a prominent ET website:

Quote:
Moreover, the Greek word translatedtormented in Rev. 20:10, with its meaning, is:
basanizo, bas-an-id'-zo; from G931; to torture:--pain, toil,torment, toss, vex.
Basanizo(6) is found elsewhere:
And suddenly they [demons] cried out, saying, "What have we to do with You, Jesus, You Son of God? Have You come here to torment us before the time?" (Mt. 8:29, NKJV).
That verse reveals that the demons already know what their future destiny will be, that is, torment not annihilation.
Now what the ET proponents of this website fail to tell the readers is that basanizo is a very ubiquitous word in the Greek language. For example:

Matthew 14:22-24:

Quote:
"22 Immediately Jesus made His disciples get into the boat and go before Him to the other side, while He sent the multitudes away. 23 And when He had sent the multitudes away, He went up on the mountain by Himself to pray. Now when evening came, He was alone there. 24 But the boat was now in the middle of the sea, tossed [basanizo] by the waves, for the wind was contrary."
So "tossed" in this sense means the same thing as tossing a salad.

Now the Greek Septuagint at Ezekiel 3:20:

Quote:
"And when the righteous turns away from his righteousness, and commits a trespass, and I shall bring punishment [basanos---noun form of punishment, from the noun form of the verb basanizo]"
Now here's where it really gets interesting. Basanos meant a "touchstone", something which was used to test the purity of gold, silver and other metals. In actual fact, it was used to denote an examination. Check this out:

Quote:
Strong's Greek Cognate: #931 básanos – originally, a black, silicon-based stone used as "a touchstone" to test the purity of precious metals (like silver and gold). See 928 (basanízō).

[In the papyri, basanos also means, "touchstone," "test" (so P Oxy I. 58.25, ad 288).

931 (basanois) was "originally (from oriental origin) a touchstone; a 'Lydian stone' used for testing gold because pure gold rubbed on it left a peculiar mark. Then it was used for examination by torture. Sickness was often regarded as 'torture' " (WP, 1, 37).]
Further:

Quote:
In the case of the ones being tormented forever and ever, it was future passive, and therefore being done by someone else - it was, symbolically, an examination by someone to test the quality of those who are dead in the lake of fire, the second death. They have paid the fixed penalty. What is being addressed here is an examination, to show what was necessary to remove sin forever, so that the end result would be for them never, ever, to sin again.
From here it is just a short leap over to the granddaddy and most beloved of all ET'ers verses, Matthew 25:46

Quote:
"And these will go away into everlasting punishment [kolasin], but the righteous into eternal life."
As mentioned in other threads, the Greek word for punishment used here is
"kolasis" which means "punishment for the correction of the offender", not a penal punishment that goes on for eternity, as ET'ers so blithely love to point out.

I think the reader gets the idea. When Greek usage for these supposedly horrifying ideologies is revealed, the real truths of what the gospel writers were trying to convey comes into focus and ET basically just melts away.

So, in summary, we have "basanizo" (torment) being closely linked to "kolasis" (an age-corrective punishment), hence a very strong indication that the author of the terrifying Revelation 20:10, "tormented day and night forever and ever" really meant an "age-enduring torment of a corrective nature" in which the sinner would eventually be restored to fellowship with God.

Last edited by thrillobyte; 01-13-2011 at 02:38 PM..

 
Old 01-13-2011, 02:12 PM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,402,926 times
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Good stuff thrillobyte!
 
Old 01-13-2011, 02:42 PM
 
10,177 posts, read 10,538,351 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Good stuff thrillobyte!
Thank you, legoman. It becomes more and more evident with each inquiry I make that any punishment or torment mentioned in the scriptures has more to do with trying to rehabilitate the sinner than with torturing him for all eternity. There's more. If enough members show interest I would be happy to go into greater depth.
 
Old 01-13-2011, 03:24 PM
 
Location: SC Foothills
8,830 posts, read 9,745,070 times
Reputation: 58197
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
Seems Eternal Torment vs. Universal Redemption is the only game in town at the moment so I thought I'd toss this out:

From a prominent ET website:



Now what the ET proponents of this website fail to tell the readers is that basanizo is a very ubiquitous word in the Greek language. For example:

Matthew 14:22-24:



So "tossed" in this sense means the same thing as tossing a salad.

Now the Greek Septuagint at Ezekiel 3:20:



Now here's where it really gets interesting. Basanos meant a "touchstone", something which was used to test the purity of gold, silver and other metals. In actual fact, it was used to denote an examination. Check this out:



Further:



From here it is just a short leap over to the granddaddy and most beloved of all ET'ers verses, Matthew 25:46



As mentioned in other threads, the Greek word for punishment used here is
"kolasis" which means "punishment for the correction of the offender", not a penal punishment that goes on for eternity, as ET'ers so blithely love to point out.

I think the reader gets the idea. When Greek usage for these supposedly horrifying ideologies is revealed, the real truths of what the gospel writers were trying to convey comes into focus and ET basically just melts away.

So, in summary, we have "basanizo" (torment) being closely linked to "kolasis" (an age-corrective punishment), hence a very strong indication that the author of the terrifying Revelation 20:10, "tormented day and night forever and ever" really meant an "age-enduring torment of a corrective nature" in which the sinner would eventually be restored to fellowship with God.
A very interesting read indeed, Thrillobyte. I see you are doing your homework. The more we study the original languages the more we begin to understand how ridiculous the idea of ET actually is.
 
Old 01-13-2011, 03:27 PM
 
Location: East Coast
30,127 posts, read 19,958,111 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
good stuff thrillobyte!
+1
 
Old 01-13-2011, 04:12 PM
 
37,474 posts, read 25,217,301 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilene Wright View Post
A very interesting read indeed, Thrillobyte. I see you are doing your homework. The more we study the original languages the more we begin to understand how ridiculous the idea of ET actually is.
Knowledge is a wonderful thing . . . not the evil "wisdom of man" the fundamentalist mainstream churches believe it is . . . as they flounder in the ancient ignorance proudly proclaiming their Faith.
 
Old 01-13-2011, 04:35 PM
 
10,177 posts, read 10,538,351 times
Reputation: 3015
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilene Wright View Post
A very interesting read indeed, Thrillobyte. I see you are doing your homework. The more we study the original languages the more we begin to understand how ridiculous the idea of ET actually is.
I see now, Ilene, that it is absolutely IMPOSSIBLE to understand the meaning of scripture without going back to the original Greek. I mean, whoda thunk that that petrifying word, "tormented" actually means polishing and refining as with precious metals.

Quote:
I will refine them like silver and test them like gold.
ET'ers, care to chime in?
 
Old 01-13-2011, 04:45 PM
 
1,838 posts, read 1,930,857 times
Reputation: 179
Great thread thrill'....the very same people using the fear based philosophy or doctrine of ET,are using these ancient scriptures to try and''prove'' that their right and its either their way or the hell highway,,without even understanding the true meaning of the words that were originally in the bible,,i just hope or wish that they can loose their blindness and see things for what they are,and here we can see that you have brought some clarity to the subject of all these missinterpretations....,great thread thrill'
 
Old 01-13-2011, 04:54 PM
 
Location: Miami, FL
58,451 posts, read 31,853,456 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
ET'ers, care to chime in?
How many times does everything have to be repeated to you? This has been explained to you many times, yet you always come back to offer the same argument as if you never heard it before.
 
Old 01-13-2011, 04:58 PM
 
Location: East Coast
30,127 posts, read 19,958,111 times
Reputation: 2104
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
How many times does everything have to be repeated to you? This has been explained to you many times, yet you always come back to offer the same argument as if you never heard it before.
I have never read once someone like yourself who believes it's fair of God to torture folk, say anything that would suggest you have explained "torment likely means a corrective nature".

Last edited by pcamps; 01-13-2011 at 05:31 PM..
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