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Old 01-21-2011, 06:54 AM
 
1,736 posts, read 1,836,299 times
Reputation: 135

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
To the contrary. God is perfect and can only create that which is perfect. Adam was created humanly perfect. Without sin. He had a relationship with God which was based on love and which would continue as long as he obeyed the one prohibition that God had placed upon him. When Adam sinned he acquired a propensitity for sin. Adam's disobedience brought about immediate spiritual death and eventually physical death. This made salvation necessary, and shifted Adam's and all subsequent mankind's point of contact with God to justice rather than love. When God saw all that He had made, including Adam, He said it was very good (Gen 1:31). God cannot create anything that is imperfect and then say that it is very good.

Just as Adam had been created perfect but chose to disobey God, so also Lucifer had been created perfect and rebelled against God.

Ezekiel 28:11 'Again the word of the LORD came to me saying, 12] ''Son of man, take up a lamentation over the king of Tyre (reference to Satan who was the power behind the throne of Tyre), and say to him, 'Thus says the LORD God, ''You had the seal of perfection, Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty, ...15] ''You were blameless in your ways From the day you were created, Until unrighteousness was found in you.

The angels were created perfect, and man was created perfect. Both fell through a volitional decision to disobey God.
LOL.

If all these perfect entities decide to disobey God, why would you think it was the wrong decision. If the perfect do not make the right decisions then what does that say about your perfect God.

It seems that God himself make the wrong decision when he created mankind. He certainly says so and repented for it in Noah's day when he genocided our ass. I guess you are right. A perfect God did screw up.

BTW, Adam and Eve did not just physically die. God murdered them by breaking his covenant with them that said they could eat of the tree of life. That makes him a liar if the following is true.
My covenant I will not break, nor alter the word that has gone out of my lips.
—Psalm 89:34

God murdered them by breaking his covenant with them that said they could eat of the tree of life. That makes him a liar.

It was more like a parent, with a poisoned child, withholding the antidote.

God is seen as quite the immoral parent because of this with anyone who has a good moral sense.

I know you will not agree. Shame on you.

Regards
DL
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Old 01-21-2011, 07:01 AM
 
1,736 posts, read 1,836,299 times
Reputation: 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Satan is very real.
Literalists. how unfortunate for them to be so indoctrinated and short sighted.
You are to be pitted.

RaceandHistory.com - Doubting the Story of Exodus


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JDbesQQi9yc

Regards
DL
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Old 01-21-2011, 07:09 AM
 
1,736 posts, read 1,836,299 times
Reputation: 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by ahigherway View Post
I think things kind of fall somewhere "between" free will and no free will.
In the sense that God indeed has a plan for humanity, and He has loved and justified all mankind through His Son, and this because He put us all in Adam first.
This to me, doesn't mean that we aren't "free" to do a lot of things, at least pertaining to this life: buy the house we like, marry the person we love, do work we enjoy, etc. But none of these things affect God's overall plan. And His plan is to bring all men to salvation: some now, some later. But all through the Son. (There is no other way, because only Jesus was a "successful" Adam, and His death and Life cover us all.)

I hope this helps..

Blessings,
brian
I am a religionist who would not insult Jesus, the Rabbi, by recognizing that making him divine, I have to make God immoral.
To believe that Jesus is God is to not believe in his vicarious atonement and sacrifice. I would also have to call him a genocidal maniac.
Immortal Gods cannot die and if Jesus cannot die, there is no sacrifice. At best, he would have taken 3 days of R & R. In an immortals life, that is a cherished holiday.
I do not believe in Jesus being divine on a moral issue.
To believe him to be divine, I would have to believe that God's lesson to man is that in a pinch, a father should sacrifice his son instead of stepping up himself. That is immoral by the standards set by mankind.
We tend to believe that sons should outlive fathers. We believe that it is better for sons to bury fathers and not to have fathers bury sons.

If you choose to believe that Jesus was God's son then you have to accept that God is immoral.

Your choice.

Regards
DL

Last edited by Greatest I am; 01-21-2011 at 07:43 AM..
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Old 01-21-2011, 07:41 AM
 
107 posts, read 160,760 times
Reputation: 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greatest I am View Post
Hello my fellow Gnostic Christian.
Pleased to meet you. There are few of us around.
You are aware that that is what you are or are becoming. Right?

Regards
DL
For those Christians who believe a Gnostic can be a Gnostic Christian ... Gnosticism | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry
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Old 01-21-2011, 08:56 AM
 
20,298 posts, read 15,638,239 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiteWings View Post
In Genesis we read God created and saw it was good or perfect (depending on the translation)

But it doesn't state Adam was without sin.

What is perfect? That greatly depends on the context.
For a churgeon perfection is so cure all patients.
For an army general perfection is to wipe out 10,000 enemy troops in one hour.

So to know what God calls perfect you have to know what His plan is. (Teaching according to me)
If Adam was perfect just like Father Himself then Adam would never have sinned. Father can not sin.
Father is perfect. Father called Adam perfect.
Perfect Father never sinned. Perfect Adam did sin.
Did the perfect Father create a not so perfect world?

That's a contradiction if you believe the only perfect thing can be something without sin.

My take on this is that perfect is about that creation was exactly as God intended it to be for His plan of the Ages.
God is absolutely perfect in everyway. And therefore He cannot create sinful creatures. Adam was created without sin. But he was created with free will and his decision to disobey God brought sin into the world. Yes, Eve sinned first, but Adam was the federal head of the human race and therefore it was his sin which was charged to humanity. Adam was created perfect and therefore without sin.

Adam was without sin until he ate from the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. That was the only prohibition that God had placed upon him. It was therefore not possible for Adam to sin in any other way. It was that first sin of Adam which brought spritual and physical death to the human race.

Adam was able to sin because he had volition. Temptation can come from the old sin nature (which did not exist before Adam sinned), or it can come from the world, or it can come from the devil. But sin itself comes from the volition. Temptation gives birth to sin when volition says yes to the temptation. Satan got to Adam though his wife .

God did not intend for there to be sin and evil in his creation, but He knew that with free will there certainly would be, and therefore He provided the solution to it.

You speak of knowing the plan of God. If you want to know the plan of God, then you need to know something of the angelic conflict.

The Angelic Conflict; the Spiritual Warfare
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Old 01-21-2011, 09:04 AM
 
Location: Italy
6,387 posts, read 5,107,975 times
Reputation: 866
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greatest I am View Post
I am a religionist who would not insult Jesus, the Rabbi, by recognizing that making him divine, I have to make God immoral.
To believe that Jesus is God is to not believe in his vicarious atonement and sacrifice. I would also have to call him a genocidal maniac.
Immortal Gods cannot die and if Jesus cannot die, there is no sacrifice. At best, he would have taken 3 days of R & R. In an immortals life, that is a cherished holiday.
I do not believe in Jesus being divine on a moral issue.
To believe him to be divine, I would have to believe that God's lesson to man is that in a pinch, a father should sacrifice his son instead of stepping up himself. That is immoral by the standards set by mankind.
We tend to believe that sons should outlive fathers. We believe that it is better for sons to bury fathers and not to have fathers bury sons.

If you choose to believe that Jesus was God's son then you have to accept that God is immoral.

Your choice.

Regards
DL
Hi DL!
You raise some GREAT points, and although I don't agree with some of it, I do like discussing points of view.!

I think there is truth to the idea that it was actually God in Jesus Christ, doing the work, not simply a man who was separate from Him. God basically "tasted death" for us. Self-sacrifice, not One sacrificing Another.

The notion of "death" which Jesus experienced happened only after the Father "turned His back" on the Son on the cross. It was but for a moment, Jesus became sin and died. But since He was perfect, the power of sin over Him was "cancelled."

And so was ours!

That is the good news, that He brought us Life that we lost ourselves, and that applies to all mankind. Whether we like it or not, He has given us Life again!
So why not enjoy it??

Blessings,
brian
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Old 01-21-2011, 09:20 AM
 
20,298 posts, read 15,638,239 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trettep View Post
Mike,

If Adam were perfect, he wouldn't sin. You know why because that is what the perfect man can do:

Jas 3:2 For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body.

The perfect man can put down ALL sin. Adam was not a perfect man. The scriptures prove it.
Adam was created perfect. He was created in the image of God. It was because Adam was perfect, that he was able to have a relationship with God. That relationship was broken when he sinned and lost his perfection.

Just as Lucifer had been created perfect, but became prideful and rebelled against God. See post #103.

Refer also to post #115.
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Old 01-21-2011, 09:29 AM
 
Location: Italy
6,387 posts, read 5,107,975 times
Reputation: 866
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Adam was created perfect. He was created in the image of God. It was because Adam was perfect, that he was able to have a relationship with God. That relationship was broken when he sinned and lost his perfection.

Just as Lucifer had been created perfect, but became prideful and rebelled against God. See post #103.

Refer also to post #115.
That's what I used to believe, too.

But Adam is the only one who ever disobeyed God. The devil "sinneth from the beginning and was never "good."

Satan is described as a serpent or dragon. But no scripture indicates that he was ever an angel, only that he "masquerades" as an angel of light. But he is no angel, and never was.

You can sleep peacefully Mike!

Blessings,
brian
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Old 01-21-2011, 09:33 AM
 
Location: Toronto, ON
2,333 posts, read 2,442,246 times
Reputation: 258
We don't know at this point in "human time" when man will again Not have this unperfected and much maligned and neglected faith.
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Old 01-21-2011, 09:39 AM
 
1,736 posts, read 1,836,299 times
Reputation: 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by ahigherway View Post
Hi DL!
You raise some GREAT points, and although I don't agree with some of it, I do like discussing points of view.!

I think there is truth to the idea that it was actually God in Jesus Christ, doing the work, not simply a man who was separate from Him. God basically "tasted death" for us. Self-sacrifice, not One sacrificing Another.

The notion of "death" which Jesus experienced happened only after the Father "turned His back" on the Son on the cross. It was but for a moment, Jesus became sin and died. But since He was perfect, the power of sin over Him was "cancelled."

And so was ours!

That is the good news, that He brought us Life that we lost ourselves, and that applies to all mankind. Whether we like it or not, He has given us Life again!
So why not enjoy it??

Blessings,
brian
You have him giving and taking away and giving again so that we can now think of him as our hero. Rather a self serving and self centered egotistical God you have there.

Adam and Eve did not just physically die. God murdered them by breaking his covenant with them that said they could eat of the tree of life.
That makes him a liar if the following is true.

My covenant I will not break, nor alter the word that has gone out of my lips.
—Psalm 89:34

It was more like a parent, with a poisoned child, withholding the antidote.
God is seen as quite the immoral parent because of this with anyone who has a good moral sense.

I know you will not agree. Shame on you.

Regards
DL
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