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Old 01-21-2011, 02:35 PM
 
20,299 posts, read 15,647,071 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joeallcomm View Post
And yet....AND YET...in EVERY instance that there is a CHOICE given in the bible, there is a CAUSE that caused them to choose 'yes' or 'no'. You said it yourself sir...Eve was CAUSED to eat of the tree....Adam was CAUSED to eat of the tree....Satan CAUSED..etc.
Eve was deceived by Satan into eating the fruit. The reason that she was able to be deceived was because she was not paying attention to what she had been taught regarding the issue and so did not understand the issue. She misquoted God's command regarding not eating of the fruit, by saying that she was not even allowed to touch the fruit. God had said nothing about touching it. And perhaps, I said perhaps, she had become bored. And she probably had a desire for the forbidden fruit. This is why Satan used her to get to Adam who would have resisted Satan had he launched a direct attack against Adam.

Adam however was confronted with having to choose between God or his now fallen wife with whom he had had a perfect soul relationship, and he chose his wife over God. God then countered Satan's attempt to thwart Him with the promise of a Savior who would redeem man from his sins. Adam believed God's promise and was saved - brought back into a relationship with God which could never again be broken in the sense of loss of salvation, by sin.

Quote:
The defintion of "volition" is exactly what you say it is "to make a choice". It is nothing more or less than the "WILL".

What you are not understanding is the the concept of "FREE-volition" or "FREE-will".

To look up the defintion of "free", one would see a plethora of words such as "unimpeded, uninfluenced, of no cause, unconstrained, unrestrained, exempt from external causes or influences...etc."

This is pretty cut and dry sir. All one has to do to prove this point is to ask the question "Why?..or What is the reason of this...or the like"

Take Care
Joe
I understand that people who say that there is no free will apply a definition to it which is unwarranted. Free will simply means that you are free to choose one thing or to choose something else while reaping the benefits or being subject to the consequences of that decision.

Webster's New World Dictionary Second College Edition gives a nice simple one word definition for free will: Voluntary.

Freedom cannot exist without authority, otherwise there is anarchy. Man's free will is subject to the authority of God. He is free to choose to obey or disobey God and is subject to the consequences of his choices.


Free will does not mean as one poster once said on this forum, that if you had free will then you could drive straight down the street to the supermarket regardless of what obstacles stood in the way. Or words to that effect.

Man's free will functions under the permissive will of God and in relationship with the principle of cause and effect. God decreed in eternity past the certain futuration of all of mans choices.

Robert B. Thieme Jr. gave the following definition of the divine decree of God.

'The decree of God is His eternal, holy, wise, and sovereign purpose, comprehending at once all things that ever were or will be--in their causes, courses, conditions, successions, and relations--and determining their certain futurition.'

Angelic and human free will can act contrary to God's desires. But God decided, decreed that those free will decisions would nevertheless take place. This makes human volition truly free. Man can voluntarily decide to disobey God, but must face the consequences of his disobedience.
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Old 01-21-2011, 02:37 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,286,196 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
I have a question for you Mike, do you believe that God has free will? For instance, can God lie?
He answered that before you even asked....are you reading the posts?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
Nor does God lie.
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Old 01-21-2011, 02:38 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,198,849 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Sin has been paid for by Christ and is not the issue in salvation. The issue is whether or not a person will accept God's offer of salvation through faith in Christ. If he does, then he is imputed with God's own righteousness and eternal life and is qualified to spend eternity in God's presence. If he rejects Christ then he is left depending on his own relative human righteousness which God must always reject because it does not measure up to His perfect righteousness. And therefore the unbeliever will spend eternity future separated from God. He does die in his sins but is not judged for them. He is instead condemned on the basis of his own righteousness (Revelation 20:11-15).
That is not scriptural. According the the writings of Paul, all will be saved. The best example of those who do not believe but will be saved is made of Israel in Romans 11, who were made enemies of the gospel for our sakes, but are beloved for the sake of the patriarchs. As it is written, all Israel will be saved, and this in reference to those who rejected Christ.

The gifts of God are irrevocable, there is nothing any human can do to make the gift of God. Salvation is 100% the work of Christ on the cross, and 0% the work of man. The fact is the scriptures are clear that faith is a gift from God, and eventually every part of Gods creation will willing confess that Christi is lord.


"What if some did not have faith? Will their lack of faith nullify God’s faithfulness? Not at all! Let God be true, and every man a liar ..."


The faithlessness of others does not nullify the faithfulness of God to accomplish his purpose and desire for all of his creation.
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Old 01-21-2011, 02:43 PM
 
20,299 posts, read 15,647,071 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
He answered that before you even asked....are you reading the posts?
Thanks sciotamicks. It saves me the trouble of having to answer.
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Old 01-21-2011, 02:49 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,198,849 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
He answered that before you even asked....are you reading the posts?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Thanks sciotamicks. It saves me the trouble of having to answer.
So then your answer is no, God does not have "free will". Yet you teach man was created in Gods image, as the scriptures do clearly teach ... So then why do you teach that God created man with a "free will" if God himself does not even have a "free will"?

Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 01-21-2011 at 03:01 PM..
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Old 01-21-2011, 02:53 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,198,849 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
So then your answer is no, God does not have "free will". Yet you teach man was created in Gods image as the scriptures do clearly teach ... So then why do you teach that God created man with a "free will" if God himself does not even have a "free will"?
The truth is that the orthodox fundamentalist Christian religion teaches that God gave free will to his creatures (something which according to Christianity God himself does not even have) whom he knew would ultimately rebel against him if he gave it to them.

And in as Much God relegated the fate of his own creation into the hands of his own creation, and in so doing made his own will subject to the will of his own creation.

Of course the scriptures contradict this false teaching, as they do clearly proclaim that God works all things out according to the counsel of his own will, and not according to the will of men.
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Old 01-21-2011, 03:01 PM
 
20,299 posts, read 15,647,071 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
That is not scriptural. According the the writings of Paul, all will be saved. The best example of those who do not believe but will be saved is made of Israel in Romans 11, who were made enemies of the gospel for our sakes, but are beloved for the sake of the patriarchs. As it is written, all Israel will be saved, and this in reference to those who rejected Christ.
It is completely scriptural. Paul did not teach that all men will be saved. And you had to have known that I would say that.

The reason that Israel was temporarily set aside was because (and which God had always known about) they failed to carry out their responsibility to take the gospel to the gentiles. Their continued disobedience which finally expressed itself in rejecting Christ as the Messiah resulted in God interrupting the Dispensation of Israel and bringing in the dispensation of the church to whom fell the responsibility to evangelize the world. Once the church-age has run its course the dispensation of Israel will resume to finish out its final seven years - the tribulation. As a result of the judgments of the tribulation, Israel will turn back to God and will recognize finally that Jesus Christ is the Messiah that they had rejected.

In no way does it imply that those Jews who died in unbelief will be saved. The nation of Israel will be restored in belief. But all who have died in unbelief, whether Jew or Gentile, are eternally lost.

But again, my understanding is that for the time being, this issue of ET versus UR is temporarily banned on this forum.
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Old 01-21-2011, 03:05 PM
 
1,736 posts, read 1,836,575 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Thanks sciotamicks. It saves me the trouble of having to answer.
Mike

Is it just as much of a sin to cause one to lie as it is to do the lying?
Is God breaking his covenant the same as lying or is it some other sin?

Regards
DL
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Old 01-21-2011, 03:09 PM
 
20,299 posts, read 15,647,071 times
Reputation: 7408
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
So then your answer is no, God does not have "free will". Yet you teach man was created in Gods image, as the scriptures do clearly teach ... So then why do you teach that God created man with a "free will" if God himself does not even have a "free will"?
Do not put words in my mouth. And do not make false claims about what I have said. My posts are available for all to see.

God has absolute free will. He is sovereign. And it was God's sovereign decision and purpose to create man with free will.

Man has free will because God desires a relationship with His creatures which is based on reciprocal love. Apart from free will such a relationship would not be possible.

Man has free will because he was created in the image of God and God has sovereign will.

Man has free will to resolve the angelic conflict.
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Old 01-21-2011, 03:10 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,198,849 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
It is completely scriptural. Paul did not teach that all men will be saved. And you had to have known that I would say that.

The reason that Israel was temporarily set aside was because (and which God had always known about) they failed to carry out their responsibility to take the gospel to the gentiles. Their continued disobedience which finally expressed itself in rejecting Christ as the Messiah resulted in God interrupting the Dispensation of Israel and bringing in the dispensation of the church to whom fell the responsibility to evangelize the world. Once the church-age has run its course the dispensation of Israel will resume to finish out its final seven years - the tribulation. As a result of the judgments of the tribulation, Israel will turn back to God and will recognize finally that Jesus Christ is the Messiah that they had rejected.

In no way does it imply that those Jews who died in unbelief will be saved. The nation of Israel will be restored in belief. But all who have died in unbelief, whether Jew or Gentile, are eternally lost.

But again, my understanding is that for the time being, this issue of ET versus UR is temporarily banned on this forum.

I think you have misunderstood, as the new sticky only says that all posts must be civil. Nothing about the ET vs. UR debate. That is unless of course there was some other announcement made that i am unaware of ... ?

Nevertheless, my posts are in context with the OP, that is they concern the concept of free will.

Back to the issue at hand ...

Paul said all Israel will be saved, you say only those that believe will be saved. I believe the words of Paul and not the words of Mike555 or any of the words of those men to whom he subscribes that like himself contradict the words of Paul.

Jesus agreed with Paul and myself, that all Israel will and should be saved regardless of their rejection of Christ, and that is why Jesus prayed and asked the father to forgive the people who rejected him and murdered him. I believe the father will answer Christs prayer where this is concerned, regardless of whether or not you want them to be or believe that they should be damned for ever. I believe the will of Christ that they should be forgiven is greater than your will that they should be damned for ever.
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