U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
 
Old 01-21-2011, 03:15 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,200,750 times
Reputation: 892

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Do not put words in my mouth. And do not make false claims about what I have said. My posts are available for all to see.

God has absolute free will. He is sovereign. And it was God's sovereign decision and purpose to create man with free will.

Man has free will because God desires a relationship with His creatures which is based on reciprocal love. Apart from free will such a relationship would not be possible.

Man has free will because he was created in the image of God and God has sovereign will.

Man has free will to resolve the angelic conflict.
How can God be said to have free will if God cannot even choose to lie, much less commit other more heinous acts of evil? That is an oxymoron. The traditions of men are full of them ...

You say Gods will is sovereign. Okay then, if God wants/wills to save a person, but that person does not want/will to be saved, then do you believe that God will save them anyway?

If you say that no God will not save them, then you are saying that the will of man is sovereign over the will of God as far as his own destiny is concerned at least.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 01-21-2011, 03:24 PM
 
20,299 posts, read 15,651,035 times
Reputation: 7415
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greatest I am View Post
Mike

Is it just as much of a sin to cause one to lie as it is to do the lying?
Is God breaking his covenant the same as lying or is it some other sin?

Regards
DL
Some of God's covenants (promises) are conditioned on obedience. But God has also made unconditional covenants which are solely dependent upon His unilateral decision to fulfill those covenants. Two such unconditional covenants are the Davidic Covenant and the New Covenant to Israel, both of which will be fulfilled when the Lord returns to set up His Millennial kingdom. On the other hand, the Mosaic covenant was conditional.

What God has decreed, He will carry out. God does not sin, He does not lie, He does not go back on His word.

God warned Adam of the consequences of eating of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (which is what I think you are getting at) and God certainly kept His word on the matter.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-21-2011, 03:43 PM
 
20,299 posts, read 15,651,035 times
Reputation: 7415
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
How can God be said to have free will if God cannot even choose to lie, much less commit other more heinous acts of evil? That is an oxymoron. The traditions of men are full of them ...

You say Gods will is sovereign. Okay then, if God wants/wills to save a person, but that person does not want/will to be saved, then do you believe that God will save them anyway?

If you say that no God will not save them, then you are saying that the will of man is sovereign over the will of God as far as his own destiny is concerned at least.
ALL of God's attributes function in perfect harmony with each other and never compromise each other.

God is sovereign and He is also veracity (truth). Therefore God cannot lie.

God's sovereignty. Psalm 83:18 'That they may know that Thou alone, whose name is the LORD, Art the Most High over all the earth.

God's veracity (truth) John 7:28 Of the Father, Jesus said, ''...but He who sent Me is true.''

God's perfect holiness makes it impossible for God to lie. He cannot do it because He cannot be other than Who and What He is.

It is God's desire that all men saved. But not apart from the condition of the Gospel. God cannot save anyone who refuses to place his faith in Christ for salvation.

God's will functions in three ways. 1) Overruling, 2) Directive, 3) Permissively.

Man's free will functions under God's permissive will in which God allows man to act in disobedience to Him.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-21-2011, 03:49 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,200,750 times
Reputation: 892
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
ALL of God's attributes function in perfect harmony with each other and never compromise each other.

God is sovereign and He is also veracity (truth). Therefore God cannot lie.

God's sovereignty. Psalm 83:18 'That they may know that Thou alone, whose name is the LORD, Art the Most High over all the earth.

God's veracity (truth) John 7:28 Of the Father, Jesus said, ''...but He who sent Me is true.''

God's perfect holiness makes it impossible for God to lie. He cannot do it because He cannot be other than Who and What He is.

It is God's desire that all men saved. But not apart from the condition of the Gospel. God cannot save anyone who refuses to place his faith in Christ for salvation.

God's will functions in three ways. 1) Overruling, 2) Directive, 3) Permissively.

Man's free will functions under God's permissive will in which God allows man to act in disobedience to Him.

You only prove my point, God is not free to do or be something that contradicts his character.

You are saying that God has free will, but that he is not free to do or be something that contradicts who he is. Again more contradictions.

I am not debating whether or not God is sovereign and true, i believe that in fact he is, but i do not believe God has "free will", and neither do i believe that man has "free will". "Free will" is a Luciferian deception that tickles the ears of the proud and arrogant egos of humans who like to believe that they are in control of their own lives and destinies.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-21-2011, 03:52 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,200,750 times
Reputation: 892
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
ALL of God's attributes function in perfect harmony with each other and never compromise each other.

God is sovereign and He is also veracity (truth). Therefore God cannot lie.

God's sovereignty. Psalm 83:18 'That they may know that Thou alone, whose name is the LORD, Art the Most High over all the earth.

God's veracity (truth) John 7:28 Of the Father, Jesus said, ''...but He who sent Me is true.''

God's perfect holiness makes it impossible for God to lie. He cannot do it because He cannot be other than Who and What He is.

It is God's desire that all men saved. But not apart from the condition of the Gospel. God cannot save anyone who refuses to place his faith in Christ for salvation.

God's will functions in three ways. 1) Overruling, 2) Directive, 3) Permissively.

Man's free will functions under God's permissive will in which God allows man to act in disobedience to Him.

Please show me where in the scrioptures it mentions gods "permissive will", or his "overruling will", or his "directive will"?

And please show where in the scriptures that it delineates the differences between them clearly for the readers?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-21-2011, 03:57 PM
 
1,736 posts, read 1,837,000 times
Reputation: 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Some of God's covenants (promises) are conditioned on obedience. But God has also made unconditional covenants which are solely dependent upon His unilateral decision to fulfill those covenants. Two such unconditional covenants are the Davidic Covenant and the New Covenant to Israel, both of which will be fulfilled when the Lord returns to set up His Millennial kingdom. On the other hand, the Mosaic covenant was conditional.

What God has decreed, He will carry out. God does not sin, He does not lie, He does not go back on His word.

God warned Adam of the consequences of eating of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (which is what I think you are getting at) and God certainly kept His word on the matter.
Show a quote where God warns A & E of the consequences of eating of the tree of knowledge please. Including the positive ones.

He also said they could eat of the tree of life and later broke his covenant. Scripture itself says that God will never retract his covenant. What is going on?

You also did not answer my "Is it just as much of a sin to cause one to lie as it is to do the lying?"

Care to have a go or did you try to guess where I was going with this little question as well and did not like what you were going to have to reply?

Regards
DL
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-21-2011, 04:05 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,287,428 times
Reputation: 420
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
So then your answer is no, God does not have "free will". Yet you teach man was created in Gods image, as the scriptures do clearly teach ... So then why do you teach that God created man with a "free will" if God himself does not even have a "free will"?
Does being created in His image imply this? No it does not. God by His nature is a rational being. He operates by the laws of logic. He is not constrained by them because they are some kind of "higher power", but they are the natural outflow of His will, they are His nature. He is as much a rational being as He is a loving being. Because only man has the true capacity for rational thinking, he is in this way also made in God's image. Man was created to resemble, mirror, manifest and represent, in a similar manner, the attributes and attitudes of the Father. It is man's ability to reason and to make rational choices based on mental deduction and logic, rather than instincts alone, that constitutes that image. The Father's image is reflected in and through our expressed will, thoughts and emotions.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-21-2011, 04:07 PM
 
1,736 posts, read 1,837,000 times
Reputation: 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
ALL of God's attributes function in perfect harmony with each other and never compromise each other.

.
For 2000 years apologists, whenever they get into theological trouble have used the trump card that God id unfathomable, unknowable and works in mysterious ways. yet you know all about him more than theologians know.
Is he knowable and fathomable and not mysterious at all to you?

"
God is an 'unknowable essence' that is not revealed to men. He is immensely exalted beyond all that can be recounted




Regards
DL
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-21-2011, 04:22 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,200,750 times
Reputation: 892
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Does being created in His image imply this? No it does not. God by His nature is a rational being. He operates by the laws of logic. He is not constrained by them because they are some kind of "higher power", but they are the natural outflow of His will, they are His nature. He is as much a rational being as He is a loving being. Because only man has the true capacity for rational thinking, he is in this way also made in God's image. Man was created to resemble, mirror, manifest and represent, in a similar manner, the attributes and attitudes of the Father. It is man's ability to reason and to make rational choices based on mental deduction and logic, rather than instincts alone, that constitutes that image. The Father's image is reflected in and through our expressed will, thoughts and emotions.
The simple fact is God is not free to change, or to do or be something that contradicts his nature. God does not have a "free will".

And the scriptures are clear that mankind in its corrupt unregenerate state is in subjection and bondage to sin, and is not able to do or be something that contradicts their nature. The only way a corrupt human who is completely subject and in bondage to sin and corruption can "change his spots"(Jer 13:23), is by divine intervention.

It is Christ who sets us captives free by quickening us spiritually and by dealing to us a measure of his faith in order that we repent and believe and come to a full knowledge of the truth.

"Free will" is a Luciferian deception that has taken hold over most of the Christian world.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-21-2011, 04:34 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,200,750 times
Reputation: 892
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
ALL of God's attributes function in perfect harmony with each other and never compromise each other.
Well if what you teach is true then what you said above is not.

If what you teach is true then the attribute(s) responsible for Gods decision to give mankind free will in spite of the fact that he knew that it would cause his own will for mankind to be saved to be thwarted/compromised is not in harmony with Gods desire that all be saved.

If what you teach is true, God created his own worst enemies and then had his plan for creation ruined/compromised thereby. That is to say, if what you teach is true, than the kingdom of God is divided against itself, indeed God is divided against himself.

You say God desires to save all people, and at the same time desires all people to have a free will. The fact is if "free will" as it is taught by organized religion is true, then Gods desires contradict and are at odds with each other. Gods desire for free will means that his desire for the salvation of all is nullified, or if God saves all free will is nullified.

Free will is a satanic deception perpetrated on the church by violent men who took power over the laity when Rome made Christianity the state religion. And in fact very little is written concerning free will in the first few centuries of the Christian Era, most if not all of which was written during or after the end of the second century.

Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 01-21-2011 at 04:49 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2018, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top