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Old 01-21-2011, 06:06 PM
 
Location: Florida
58,917 posts, read 32,344,755 times
Reputation: 9536

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
God's perfect holiness makes it impossible for God to lie. He cannot do it because He cannot be other than Who and What He is.
Exactly. Men have free will, but it does not mean we can choose to flap our arms and fly. We can only choose to do things which are possible for us.

Quote:
God's will functions in three ways. 1) Overruling, 2) Directive, 3) Permissively.
Jesus said He wanted MANY TIMES to gather Israel under His wings, but they refused to be gathered. Jesus WANTED it, but at the same time He PERMITTED Israel to make their choise.
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Old 01-21-2011, 06:56 PM
 
20,448 posts, read 15,831,505 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
I think you have misunderstood, as the new sticky only says that all posts must be civil. Nothing about the ET vs. UR debate. That is unless of course there was some other announcement made that i am unaware of ... ?

Nevertheless, my posts are in context with the OP, that is they concern the concept of free will.

Back to the issue at hand ...

Paul said all Israel will be saved, you say only those that believe will be saved. I believe the words of Paul and not the words of Mike555 or any of the words of those men to whom he subscribes that like himself contradict the words of Paul.

Jesus agreed with Paul and myself, that all Israel will and should be saved regardless of their rejection of Christ, and that is why Jesus prayed and asked the father to forgive the people who rejected him and murdered him. I believe the father will answer Christs prayer where this is concerned, regardless of whether or not you want them to be or believe that they should be damned for ever. I believe the will of Christ that they should be forgiven is greater than your will that they should be damned for ever.
Ironmaw, you simply can not post without making completely asinine statements such as the one I highlighted above. Such statements reveal a certain immaturity and inability to communicate in a professional manner. This dialog is over.
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Old 01-21-2011, 07:24 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,317,041 times
Reputation: 420
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
The simple fact is God is not free to change, or to do or be something that contradicts his nature. God does not have a "free will".

And the scriptures are clear that mankind in its corrupt unregenerate state is in subjection and bondage to sin, and is not able to do or be something that contradicts their nature. The only way a corrupt human who is completely subject and in bondage to sin and corruption can "change his spots"(Jer 13:23), is by divine intervention.

It is Christ who sets us captives free by quickening us spiritually and by dealing to us a measure of his faith in order that we repent and believe and come to a full knowledge of the truth.

"Free will" is a Luciferian deception that has taken hold over most of the Christian world.
For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but [how] to perform that which is good I find not.

What shall we say, then? Is the law sin? Certainly not!


Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the law.


Once I was alive apart from law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died.

You choose the law, then you die. Then you are raised.
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Old 01-21-2011, 07:25 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,240,246 times
Reputation: 893
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Ironmaw, you simply can not post without making completely asinine statements such as the one I highlighted above. Such statements reveal a certain immaturity and inability to communicate in a professional manner. This dialog is over.
I'm sorry, can we please keep this civil? I am not intending to insult you by saying i prefer the words of Christ and Paul to your words and the words of those that you subscribe to which i believe obviously contradict Christ and Paul.

It is not a personal thing mike ... Please don't try to make it out to be.



Peace ...
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Old 01-21-2011, 07:32 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,240,246 times
Reputation: 893
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but [how] to perform that which is good I find not.

What shall we say, then? Is the law sin? Certainly not!


Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the law.


Once I was alive apart from law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died.

You choose the law, then you die. Then you are raised.
The law was not chosen, the law was given. And the law that God gave them was not what they wanted, so they added to it, such things as eye for an eye, etc., things which Christ himself rejected.

It is impossible for a natural man to be subject to the law of God. They must first be spiritually quickened before they can even comprehend the things of the spirit of God.


Romans 8:7
"Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be."


The carnal minded man who is not spiritually quickened and regenerated is by nature at enmity with God and cannot willing choose to be subject to the law of God.
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Old 01-21-2011, 08:05 PM
 
20,448 posts, read 15,831,505 times
Reputation: 7724
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greatest I am View Post
Show a quote where God warns A & E of the consequences of eating of the tree of knowledge please. Including the positive ones.
God gave the warning to Adam before Eve had been built from Adam's rib. He may have again given the warning to Eve afterwards, or it's possible that Adam repeated God's warning to her. Gen 2:17.

Quote:
He also said they could eat of the tree of life and later broke his covenant. Scripture itself says that God will never retract his covenant. What is going on?
Once Adam sinned, he was in a fallen state. He was spiritually dead and under a curse. Because he had disobeyed God he no longer could be given access to the tree of life. God had no intention of allowing Adam to live forever in a fallen state with an old sin nature. Because of the fall, man must now physically die and in the case of the believer, his body must be resurrected in incorruptability. In the case of the unbeliever, his body will be resurrected and his soul (the real person) will be taken out of Hades to rejoin his resurrected body and then stand before Jesus Christ at the great white throne judgment and be thrown into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:11-15).


Quote:
You also did not answer my "Is it just as much of a sin to cause one to lie as it is to do the lying?"

Care to have a go or did you try to guess where I was going with this little question as well and did not like what you were going to have to reply?

Regards
DL
Refrain from posturing and challenges. Keep your replys on a professional level.

Abraham asked Sari to lie in Genesis 12:13 and it was a sin to do so.

But perhaps you wonder about 1 Samuel 16:1-5 as to whether God told Samuel to lie. In that case, go here. http://www.eternalgod.org/qapdf/1268
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Old 01-21-2011, 08:10 PM
 
20,448 posts, read 15,831,505 times
Reputation: 7724
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
I'm sorry, can we please keep this civil? I am not intending to insult you by saying i prefer the words of Christ and Paul to your words and the words of those that you subscribe to which i believe obviously contradict Christ and Paul.

It is not a personal thing mike ... Please don't try to make it out to be.



Peace ...
Post #162.

Your words.

''I believe the will of Christ that they should be forgiven is greater than your will that they should be damned for ever.''
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Old 01-21-2011, 08:30 PM
 
20,448 posts, read 15,831,505 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greatest I am View Post
For 2000 years apologists, whenever they get into theological trouble have used the trump card that God id unfathomable, unknowable and works in mysterious ways. yet you know all about him more than theologians know.
Is he knowable and fathomable and not mysterious at all to you?

"
God is an 'unknowable essence' that is not revealed to men. He is immensely exalted beyond all that can be recounted




Regards
DL
God has revealed Himself through the Scriptures. And what He has revealed about Himself, He expects believers to know and understand. What I know, I have learned from knowledgable pastor/teachers.

Fundamentals : Country Bible Church - Brenham, TX

Robert McLaughlin Bible Ministries / Grace Bible Church - bible doctrine truth in Christ

Class Archive - Joe Griffin Media Ministries

My original pastor/teacher, now with the Lord was Robert B. Thieme Jr. who was pastor of Berachah Church of Houston Tx. for over 50 years. Colonel Thieme had a world wide ministry teaching the word of God in an isogogical, categorical and exegetical manner.
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Old 01-21-2011, 09:27 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,317,041 times
Reputation: 420
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
The law was not chosen, the law was given. And the law that God gave them was not what they wanted, so they added to it, such things as eye for an eye, etc., things which Christ himself rejected.
You are incorrect...Eye for an eye was not added...it was part of the law....Christ rejected the notion and contexts of what the Jews did by abusing this particular law. Exo 21:24, Deut 19:21; Lev 24:20
Christ fulfilled the LAW, Prophets, and the Psalms.....get it? FULFILLED.

Quote:
It is impossible for a natural man to be subject to the law of God. They must first be spiritually quickened before they can even comprehend the things of the spirit of God.

Romans 8:7
"Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be."

The carnal minded man who is not spiritually quickened and regenerated is by nature at enmity with God and cannot willing choose to be subject to the law of God.
It really bothers me when someone like yourself, for example, removes the entire scripture out of context to fit your needs and plight. This carnal minded man, Paul speaks of is those who ARE IN THE FAITH, but WALK AFTER THE FLESH. Good grief!

Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

Romans 7 has NOTHING to do with someone outside of the faith!
The concept is MOOT!
And lastly, you cannot be at enmity to that which you do not know!
Paul died, when he learned the law, then SIN was revived. His carnal mind, existed not, until he learned the law, and then it rebelled...against the LAW!

What then, you ask, does free will do? I reply with brevity, it saves. Take away FREE WILL, and nothing will be left to be saved. Take away GRACE, and nothing will be left as the source of salvation. This work [of salvation] cannot be effected without two parties -- one, from whom it may come: the other, to whom or in whom it may be wrought. God is the author of salvation. Free will is only capable of being saved. No one, except God, is able to bestow salvation; and nothing, except free will, is capable of receiving it.

Last edited by sciotamicks; 01-21-2011 at 09:43 PM..
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Old 01-21-2011, 09:35 PM
 
20,448 posts, read 15,831,505 times
Reputation: 7724
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
Exactly. Men have free will, but it does not mean we can choose to flap our arms and fly. We can only choose to do things which are possible for us.



Jesus said He wanted MANY TIMES to gather Israel under His wings, but they refused to be gathered. Jesus WANTED it, but at the same time He PERMITTED Israel to make their choise.
Yes, exactly.

The overruling, Directive and permissive will of God are theological terms.

An example of God's directive will can be seen in Acts 8:26 'But an angel of the Lord spoke to Philip saying, 'Arise and go south to the road that descends from Jerusalem to Gaza.'' Acts 10:1-23 is another example.

God's overruling will can be seen in Numbers chapters 22, 23, and 24, concerning Balak's desire for Balaam to curse the Jews, but God would not allow Balaam to do so, and in fact Balaam ended up blessing the Jews.

And of course, God's permissive will allows man to disobey His desire and allows sin and evil to exist in the world.

Instead of going to Rome in AD 58 as God directed him to, Paul decided instead to go to Jerusalem. God permitted thisóup to a point. (Acts chapter 21).

Here are just a couple of sites which talk about God's will.

Christ Report Ė Basics 13 – The Sovereignty of God

Class Archive - Joe Griffin Media Ministries
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