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Old 01-22-2011, 07:42 AM
 
Location: Italy
6,387 posts, read 5,112,209 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
It is you who will not listen. Isa 14 and Ezekiel 28 are indeed talking about Satan. The real power behind the throne of Tyre and Babylon was Satan.

Whereas in Eze 28:1-10 it is the actual king who is being addressed, at verse 11, it is Satan who is being referred to. The human king of Tyre was never in Eden, the garden of God. Nor did the human king of Tyre ever have the seal of perfection. Nor was the human king of Tyre ever the annointed churub who covered the mercy seat of God in heaven. And the human king of Tyre was never blameless in his ways from the day he was created - the human king was not created, he was born. These things are references to Satan.

In Isaiah 14:13-14, those are the five 'I wills' that resulted in Satan's moral fall, and his condemnation.

Because you reject fundamental doctrine and prefer to allegorize the blazes out of the Bible, you will reject this out of hand. That is your choice.
No, I believe the Bible, not man's traditions about it.
You have added LOTS to verses about things that are simply not there. I'm sorry Mike. It's unscriptural.

If you want something SCRIPTURAL about the OT verses in question, try this: Lucifer – The Shinning One | Dimensions of Truth

It's all scriptural, and explains why God made satan.

Again, bottom line is: God has a purpose in what He does. Nothing out of control here.

Blessings,
brian
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Old 01-22-2011, 08:25 AM
 
20,306 posts, read 15,665,676 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joeallcomm View Post
Mike, the only thing you have made abundantly clear, is that you dont know what you are talking about with FREEwill. Again I ask...

Sir Mike. Please give me one CHOICE that you have EVER made that did NOT have an INFLUENCE that CAUSED you to choose it in the first place.

Sir Mike. Please give me a scripture of any DECISION that was made in the bible, that did NOT have an INFLUENCE that CAUSED them to choose it in the first place.
I just got through telling you over the last couple of replies to you that freewill does involve influences and causes and you don't seem to perceive that.

One last time and then this is done.

EXAMPLE: When a person is presented with the gospel, he is faced with an issue. That issue requires a decision. The gospel is the cause for the need to make a choice. Presented with that issue, a person must now use his free will - his volition to choose between a positive response or a negitive response with regard to the gospel.

Your problem is that you define free will as something different than volition, and it is not. Free will simply means that you are free to make a decision with regard to some situation or circumstance.

Again, Webster's dictionary defined free will with one word: 'Voluntary.'

Now if you insist on applying philosophical concepts to free will, then I can't do a thing for you.
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Old 01-22-2011, 08:49 AM
 
20,306 posts, read 15,665,676 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ahigherway View Post
No, I believe the Bible, not man's traditions about it.
You have added LOTS to verses about things that are simply not there. I'm sorry Mike. It's unscriptural.

If you want something SCRIPTURAL about the OT verses in question, try this: Lucifer – The Shinning One | Dimensions of Truth

It's all scriptural, and explains why God made satan.

Again, bottom line is: God has a purpose in what He does. Nothing out of control here.

Blessings,
brian
No. You don't believe the Bible. You don't even understand it. If you think that the human king of Tyre was ever a cherub angel who covered the mercy seat of God, then you most certainly are lacking in understanding. You don't even understand what the word 'covers' in Eze 28:14 is in reference to.

You have the right to believe whatever you want. You are wrong, but you have the right to be wrong. There is no purpose in continuing this discussion wth you.
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Old 01-22-2011, 09:03 AM
 
20,306 posts, read 15,665,676 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greatest I am View Post
Thanks for your dishonest answer.

Just about what I expect from literalists.

Regards
DL
There is nothing dishonest about the answer in post #177. It is direct and to the point. People reject Christ for a number of reasons. And they will pay the penalty for that choice.

You have now accused me of being dishonest in addition to earlier in the thread saying that I want people to burn in hell. Or words to that effect. And since you reject the fact that the Bible is to be understood literally while recognizing that there are symbolic descriptions in the Bible, there is not much point in continuing to discuss this with you.
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Old 01-22-2011, 10:35 AM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,203,323 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
You are incorrect...Eye for an eye was not added...it was part of the law....Christ rejected the notion and contexts of what the Jews did by abusing this particular law. [b]Exo 21:24, Deut 19:21; Lev 24:20 Christ fulfilled the LAW, Prophets, and the Psalms.....get it? FULFILLED.
Christ said ...

"You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth."

He did not say ...

"you heard that God said" ... or ... "once i said"

And it is written ...

"'How can you say, "We are wise, for we have the law of the LORD," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?"

Quote:
It really bothers me when someone like yourself, for example, removes the entire scripture out of context to fit your needs and plight. This carnal minded man, Paul speaks of is those who ARE IN THE FAITH, but WALK AFTER THE FLESH. Good grief!
I understand, it bothers me also when someone like yourself does what you are attacking me for doing, which is what i see you do all the time.

Quote:
Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
The verse above does not say that someone is "in the faith but walks after the flesh", you are adding to scripture again.

Quote:
Romans 7 has NOTHING to do with someone outside of the faith!
The concept is MOOT!
And lastly, you cannot be at enmity to that which you do not know!
Paul died, when he learned the law, then SIN was revived. His carnal mind, existed not, until he learned the law, and then it rebelled...against the LAW!
Romans 7 is about Paul who was an apostle of "the faith", and his own "at the time" present struggle with sin that is in the members of the flesh.

Romans 7 has everything to do with all of us, whether of the faith or not.

Paul was a jew, he was raised with the law.

When he writes, "the law came and i died", he is referring to the loss of innocence as a child.

His carnal mind did exist even when he was a child, but he was not liable until he learned about sin.

There are two states of humanity, the carnal/natural degenerate state, and the regenerate/quickened/spiritual state ...

When one is regenerated by the spirit, quickened spiritually, they still struglle with the carnal sin nature ...


Thank you for replying with brevity, oh how i loath the needless long speeches ...

So according to you it is the "free will" of Human beings that saves human beings?

After all you do believe and teach that it is the human free will which makes a wise decision to believe in Christ that saves a person, and that their belief and faith is not a product of the holy spirit working within them to believe ...

I believe you are woefully mistaken ...

Humans do not have free will, neither does the myth of free will make an human being.

It is God in Christ who saves, not some mythological reality like free will.

Mankind did not willingly choose to be in sin or to be subject to the futility of corruption.

God subjected his creation to the futility of corruption, and to disobedience, so that we may have hope of his liberating us by his grace(Romans 8:20, Romans 11:32).

Grace and free will are not synonyms, even if you think that they are. Grace does in no way depend of the myth of free will.

Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 01-22-2011 at 11:15 AM..
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Old 01-22-2011, 10:49 AM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,203,323 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Refer to post #170. Examples have been given there for each category of God's will.
In other words, the scriptures do not in any place make reference to the various forms of Gods will and their differences that you mentioned.
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Old 01-22-2011, 10:55 AM
 
Location: Italy
6,387 posts, read 5,112,209 times
Reputation: 866
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
No. You don't believe the Bible. You don't even understand it. If you think that the human king of Tyre was ever a cherub angel who covered the mercy seat of God, then you most certainly are lacking in understanding. You don't even understand what the word 'covers' in Eze 28:14 is in reference to.

You have the right to believe whatever you want. You are wrong, but you have the right to be wrong. There is no purpose in continuing this discussion wth you.
Mike, as long as you're convinced you're right, that's all that matters.

Peace,
brian
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Old 01-22-2011, 11:46 AM
 
20,306 posts, read 15,665,676 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
In other words, the scriptures do not in any place make reference to the various forms of Gods will and their differences that you mentioned.
Readers need only go to post #170 to see the distinctions in the categories of God's will that the poster above denies is there.
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Old 01-22-2011, 12:20 PM
 
309 posts, read 295,309 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
I just got through telling you over the last couple of replies to you that freewill does involve influences and causes and you don't seem to perceive that.
This statement makes absolutely NO SENSE at all. A “will” that involves INFLUENCES and CAUSES, is obviously and logically NOT FREE.

I perceive it just fine Mike. It is you who cannot perceive what your own mouth says. You say this statement, but in your own understanding of ‘freewill’ you take the CAUSE out of the equation EVERY time. Like when you say this…

Quote:
That issue requires a decision. The gospel is the cause for the need to make a choice. Presented with that issue, a person must now use his free will - his volition to choose between a positive response or a negitive response with regard to the gospel.
NO…the gospel is NOT the CAUSE that gives a person a choice of “yes” or “no”. The HEARING (understanding) of the gospel is what CAUSES a person to choose “YES” (those who hear will NEVER choose “NO”). In the same respects, NOT HEARING (understanding) the gospel is what CAUSES a person to choose “NO” EVERYTIME (those who do NOT understand will NEVER choose “YES”).

And WHO gives this understanding again? To those who understand, this HEARING (understanding) is GIVEN FIRST Mike.

Mat 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know (Gk: understand) the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

Luk 8:10 And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.

And to those who do NOT understand, it is simply because God has NOT given them the “ears that hear” (understanding).

Rom 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.

What you are not understanding here Mike, is that the CHOICE can NOT be made unless an INFLUENCE “CAUSES” one to choose. There is only ONE CAUSE sir, and it exists BEFORE the choice is even made. Therefore, WITHOUT the cause, a choice can NOT be made. Just answer a few questions…

If satan (CAUSE) was NOT in the garden, would Eve had still CHOSEN to eat of it? Gen 3:13

If the one did NOT put away his wife (CAUSE), would she commit adultery? Mat 5:32

If the Beast did NOT CAUSE to receive a mark, would they STILL CHOOSE to receive it? Rev 13:16

If Saul did NOT compel them (CAUSE), would they have STILL CHOSEN to blapheme? Act 26:11

If God did NOT turn their heart (CAUSE), would they have CHOSE to hate His people? Psa 105:25

If God did NOT CAUSE one to walk in His statutes, would they STILL CHOOSE to walk in them? Eze 36:27

If God did NOT send them a strong delusion, would they have STILL CHOOSE to believe a lie? II Thess. 2:11

If God did NOT put a lying spirit there (CAUSE), would they STILL be PERSUADED? (I Kings 22:22-23).

If God did NOT deceive the prophet (CAUSE), then would he STILL be DECEIVED then? Ezekiel 14:9

If God did NOT give the power (CAUSE), then would Pilate STILL have ANY POWER AT ALL? (John 19:11)

If the God’s Goodness did NOT lead one (CAUSE), then would one STILL REPENT? (Rom. 2:4)

If Jesus did NOT choose someone (CAUSE), would they STILL CHOOSE him? Joh 15:16 YE HAVE NOT CHOSEN ME, but I have chosen you!!!!

If your carnal/fleshly nature did not CAUSE you to sin, would you still sin? Does a physically DEAD man STILL sin?

I can list many MANY more Mike. I don’t know how else to explain it to you. This is very hard for you to understand, and I am at a loss of why you can not. The CAUSE is always ONE, not TWO. The CAUSE is the GOAL. If the CAUSE merits a person to choose “YES”, then you will, without a doubt, choose YES. But the SAME cause will NOT EVER allow you to choose “NO”.

If God HIDES (CAUSE) something from you Mike, you WILL NEVER…EVER…EVER find it (EFFECT), …..
· Mat 11:25 because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent,..

…unless, that is UNLESS, God reveals (CAUSE) it to you, that which was hidden (EFFECT).
· ……and hast revealed them unto babes.

If God gives (CAUSE) you the eyes to see, then you will see spiritual truth (EFFECT),
· .. Mat 13:11..Because it is given unto you to know


UNLESS, God has BLINDED (CAUSE) you from seeing spiritual truth, then you will NEVER…EVER see it (EFFECT),
· …. but to them it is not given….also see Rom 11:8

Your understanding of choose ‘yes’ or ‘no’, totally leaves out the CAUSE. That is what ‘freewill’ theology does. To find out the CAUSE of why someone chooses YES then keep asking the question, “WHY?”. The same is for why they choose NO.

Here is a good example in scriptures.

Deu 31:16 And the LORD said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; and this people will rise up (IN THE FUTURE!!), and go a whoring after the gods of the strangers of the land, whither they go to be among them, and will forsake me, and break my covenant which I have made with them.

Deu 31:21 And it shall come to pass, when many evils and troubles are befallen them, that this song shall testify against them as a witness; for it shall not be forgotten out of the mouths of their seed: for I know their imagination which they go about, even now, BEFORE I HAVE BROUGHT THEM INTO THE LAND which I sware.

Now, sir Mike, this is pretty cut and dry here. God lays out an EFFECT here that WILL, without a doubt, happen. And He says this BEFORE any choices are ever given in the first place. So accordingly to what has ALREADY left His mouth here, if from HERE ON OUT, He then gives then choice such as:

You can choose either to ***** after gods, or not. ‘yes’ or ‘no’.
You can choose to either forsake me, or not. ‘yes’ or ‘no’
You can choose to break my covenant, or not. ‘yes’ or ‘no’

Now what do you think they BETTER choose here Mike. They BETTER choose to actually DO all of these things, because it has ALREADY been spoken of that they WILL (that is BEFORE the choices were even asked of them).

Now we are talking about ONLY the EFFECT here, without the CAUSE. There is a cause to every effect, so what is the reason for them doing this. WHY are they doing these things? Well, because they can do NO GOOD apart from God. They are sinners, they will sin, NO MATTER WHAT. They were BLINDED and DEAF to His ways.

Deu 29:4 Yet the LORD hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day.

They are sinners and they will ALWAYS choose the wrong, unless God INFLUENCES, MANIPULATES, CAUSES, or brings about circumstances to CAUSE them to choose righteously. Ever since God the day that God TOLD them what they would choose, He “CAUSED to see/hear” a very few.

You say that God says “Choose Me, YES or NO”, but you never discuss what CAUSES them to choose yes or no. Again, ‘volition’ is just mere WILL. Volition WITHOUT CAUSES is “freewill”, and obviously does NOT exist. Just because you keep repeating it does not make it true Mike. I still have not received one example from yours or the bible choices that were FREEEEEEE of a CAUSE.

You can NOT change your spots Mike, but God CAN.

Take Care
Joe
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Old 01-22-2011, 12:50 PM
 
1,736 posts, read 1,837,464 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
There is nothing dishonest about the answer in post #177. It is direct and to the point. People reject Christ for a number of reasons. And they will pay the penalty for that choice.

.
So a man who is a good man who just not like the idea of God causing others to lie is condemned for just not liking as God who causes sin.

Now therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets.
2 Chron 18:22

Is that fair and just?

Regards
DL
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