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Old 01-24-2011, 12:50 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
How do you add to infinity, Sciota??? God is infinite glory. Only we puny creatures seek glory as a finite goal.
You don't and I agree.
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Old 01-24-2011, 12:54 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
Mankind cannot add to the glory of God, but God can add to his own glory by accomplishing all that he desires through his word as the scriptures clearly teach that he will do.

Does this mean that God was/is lacking in any glory before he accomplishes his desires? No, at least not in reality, though in the minds of men it seems so ...

Because we look around us in the world and as of yet we see what seems to be the prevailing victory of sin and death over most of the creation, but when all is said and done, then at last all who doubted the true glory of God and his ability to accomplish all that he desires will be destroyed, and all will come to know the full glory of God in all that he has accomplished throughout all creation for all that he has made.
You never addressed Heb 9:28? Or at least I didn't catch it.
Regarding sin and death....do you see this as victory over physical death?
Hebrews 9 strictly states that at the second coming, sin and death are overcome, as is 1 Cor 15, correlating the same event, the second coming....given victory over those who wait for Him, not all, but a select "those." How do you address this, when it appears you are importing the victory over sin and death, a consummation of the final eschaton, that is, post Millennial Reign? Thanks.
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Old 01-24-2011, 05:05 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
You never addressed Heb 9:28? Or at least I didn't catch it.
Regarding sin and death....do you see this as victory over physical death?
Hebrews 9 strictly states that at the second coming, sin and death are overcome, as is 1 Cor 15, correlating the same event, the second coming....given victory over those who wait for Him, not all, but a select "those." How do you address this, when it appears you are importing the victory over sin and death, a consummation of the final eschaton, that is, post Millennial Reign? Thanks.
I actually did answer your question concerning that scripture in post #220 of this thread ...

I will quote again what i wrote in that post for convenience sake ...

Quote:
That is at the time of his coming, but there is much to come after Christ returns, still ages in fact. The millennial kingdom after his return, the the serpent is released for a season to deceive the nations, and then Finally all things will be made subject to Christ so God can be all in all, but this will not happen until after Christs return and then after the nations are deceived again.
I see "this" as a victory over every form of death that exists.

Hebrews 9 says nothing about sin and death being destroyed at the time of the second coming, neither does 1 Cor 15. What is said in 1 Cor 15 is that after Christ has reigned and subjected all things to himself then the last enemy to be destroyed will be death. This is after his reign when God has subjected all things to him and he gives over the kingdom to the father to be all in all, this is when all death and sin will be destroyed. The bible is clear that after the second coming there will still be sin and death in the world.
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Old 01-24-2011, 05:15 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
I actually did answer your question concerning that scripture in post #220 of this thread ...

I will quote again what i wrote in that post for convenience sake ...



I see "this" as a victory over every form of death that exists
Exegesis?

Quote:
Hebrews 9
Quote:
says nothing about sin and death being destroyed at the time of the second coming, neither does 1 Cor 15. What is said in 1 Cor 15 is that after Christ has reigned and subjected all things to himself then the last enemy to be destroyed will be death. This is after his reign when God has subjected all things to him and he gives over the kingdom to the father to be all in all, this is when all death and sin will be destroyed. The bible is clear that after the second coming there will still be sin and death in the world.
Bolded above your errors.

Verse 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then [cometh] the end,[after His second coming] (emph mine) when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. [After His second coming]

The context of 1 Cor 15 is the resurrection of the dead, duly noted in Revelation 20, among many others.

Hebrews 9

Verse 15: And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions [that were] under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

Verse 26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Verse 28...again

So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

You are incorrect and very befuddled as to the timings of all these eschatological events.
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Old 01-24-2011, 05:47 PM
 
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Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Exegesis?
Indeed ... the word death in the Greek is "thanatos" ...

thanatos - the death of the body that separation (whether natural or violent) of the soul and the body by which the life on earth is ended



Quote:
Bolded above your errors.

Verse 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then [cometh] the end,[after His second coming] (emph mine) when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. [After His second coming]
Yes, after his second coming, not at the time of his second coming, as the scriptures are clear that while christ is reigning AFTER his second coming there will still be sin and death in the world until he has finally subjected all things to himself. Again, the scriptures are clear that after the second coming and at the end of the millennial reign of Christ the serpent will be released from the pit to deceive the nations again ...


Rev 20:3
He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.

Rev 20:7-8
When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore.


Christ second coming will begin the millennial reign during which the dragon will be bound in the pit, and after that he will be sat free to deceive the nations again for a short time.

So obviously sin and death cannot be destroyed completely at the second coming when the millennial reign begins.

The second coming of Christ happens before the thousand year reign, not after, as was taught by all the early church father in the first 300 years of the Christians era and as was taught by the apostles themselves, though you reject the truth of it in favor of the hyper preterist tradition to which you subscribe which has no basis in the earliest Christian teachings.

Exegesis ...

Quote:
The context of 1 Cor 15 is the resurrection of the dead, duly noted in Revelation 20, among many others.

Hebrews 9

Verse 15: And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions [that were] under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

Verse 26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Verse 28...again

So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

You are incorrect and very befuddled as to the timings of all these eschatological events.


None of the verses above say that sin and death will be destroyed at the time of the second coming ...

You are the one who is befuddled, as the dragon will be released from the pit a thousand years after Christs second coming. and the first resurrection happens at the beginning of the reign of Christ on earth, and the second resurrection will not happen until after the reign of Christ on earth.

verse 26 is clearly speaking of the death of christ on the cross for the remission of sins, as it is spoken of in the past tense, not in the future tense ... For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. You are mixing up what Christ has already done with what he is yet to do.

Quote:
For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
Of course i am aware that you do not believe in the literal resurrection of the dead but instead believe in the gnostic interpretation of the resurrection of the dead.

I know you believe the first resurrection(the resurrection of the righteous) happened alread when Christ resurrected, but this is proven false in the book of acts where it is clearly stated that at that time David had not yet ascended to heaven.


Act 2:34
For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he said himself, The Lord said to my Lord, Sit you on my right hand

Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 01-24-2011 at 05:56 PM..
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Old 01-24-2011, 06:09 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
Indeed ... the word death in the Greek is "thanatos" ...

thanatos - the death of the body that separation (whether natural or violent) of the soul and the body by which the life on earth is ended
That's not an exegesis. That's an opinon, without scriptural support.
Verses that simply state that biological death is what is in view.....

Quote:
Yes, after his second coming, not at the time of his second coming, as the scriptures are clear that while christ is reigning AFTER his second coming there will still be sin and death in the world until he has finally subjected all things to himself.
Huh? 1 Cor 15, as well as many others, simply state that at His coming, He is victorious over sin and death, which is placed consistently timed with the ROTD, which occurs at the end of the millennium Per Rev 20, at His second coming.....what transpires immediately after the Parousia is the ROTD, GWTJ, is an eternal reign of Christ.....who is God.

Quote:
Again, the scriptures are clear that after the second coming and at the end of the millennial reign of Christ the serpent will be released from the pit to deceive the nations again ...
After His second coming, there is no release of whatever except for the dead ones in the Sea and Hades.....hence the order of resurrection, starting with His personal resurrection as per 1 Cor 15. The Millenium, is pre-second coming. If you carefully read Rev 20, you will see that Satan in bound by HIM while He was still alive biologically. Cross reference Matt 3:27 and the binding of the strong man, who is Satan.

Quote:
Christ second coming will begin the millennial reign during which the dragon will be bound in the pit, and after that he will be sat free to deceive the nations again for a short time.
Wrong.....John recalled himself being a priest and king...a characteristics that pertains only to the millennium. You are way off base. The binding of Satan occurs either in His lifetime, or immediately after His resurrection.

Quote:
So obviously sin and death cannot be destroyed completely at the second coming when the millennial reign begins.
That isn't what the Bible says.
It says it is destroyed at His second coming.

Quote:
The second coming of Christ happens before the thousand year reign, not after, as was taught by all the early church father in the first 300 years of the Christians era and as was taught by the apostles themselves, though you reject the truth of it in favor of the hyper preterist tradition to which you subscribe which has no basis in the earliest Christian teachings.
Hyper? Is that your little jab....I am not Hyper....here is a quick difference, since you failed miserably at it:

Full Preterism and Hyper Preterism is contrary to UR completely

Quote:
None of the verses above say that sin and death will be destroyed at the time of the second coming ...
Yes they do...read them again.

Isa 9:7 - Christ reigns forever.
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Old 01-24-2011, 06:18 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
That's not an exegesis. That's an opinon, without scriptural support.
Verses that simply state that biological death is what is in view.....

Huh? 1 Cor 15, as well as many others, simply state that at His coming, He is victorious over sin and death, which is placed consistently timed with the ROTD, which occurs at the end of the millennium Per Rev 20, at His second coming.....what transpires immediately after the Parousia is the ROTD, GWTJ, is an eternal reign of Christ.....who is God.

After His second coming, there is no release of whatever except for the dead ones in the Sea and Hades.....hence the order of resurrection, starting with His personal resurrection as per 1 Cor 15. The Millenium, is pre-second coming. If you carefully read Rev 20, you will see that Satan in bound by HIM while He was still alive biologically. Cross reference Matt 3:27 and the binding of the strong man, who is Satan.

Wrong.....John recalled himself being a priest and king...a characteristics that pertains only to the millennium. You are way off base. The binding of Satan occurs either in His lifetime, or immediately after His resurrection.

That isn't what the Bible says.
It says it is destroyed at His second coming.

Hyper? Is that your little jab....I am not Hyper....here is a quick difference, since you failed miserably at it:

Full Preterism and Hyper Preterism is contrary to UR completely

Yes they do...read them again.

Isa 9:7 - Christ reigns forever.
You have been decieved ...

And the evidence of it is that sin and death are still prevalent in the world.

If as you teach, the second coming of Christ has already happened, and sin and death have been destroyed, then that must mean there is no more sin or death in creation, and all one has to do to know that is a lie from Satan is take a look at the world around them.

If you are trying to convince me that sin and death have been destroyed, i cannot take anything that you say seriously. That is preposterous ...

Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 01-24-2011 at 06:28 PM..
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Old 01-24-2011, 11:05 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
You have been decieved ...
More accusations and judgments....don't you ever stop, or is this your idea of edifying Christ...I am really getting sick and tired of your attitude, and your inability to have a Christian conversation with someone who disagrees with you.

Quote:
And the evidence of it is that sin and death are still prevalent in the world.
As it will always be, for those not in Christ. When I die Ironmaw, DEATH has no hold over me, therefore I will never die...I am in union with God, He is in me, Christ is in me, and I will never die, and never be separated from Him.
Don't you want that? You can't have it now if you think the second coming is future. I am sorry, but that is the plainest of the plainest. Christ came to bear sin, and a second time, He will bring salvation. According to the writer of Hebrews, you do not have salvation. I do.

Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Already realized for Paul, why can't it for Christians?
Seems fulfilled to me.

How about another?

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Quote:
If as you teach, the second coming of Christ has already happened, and sin and death have been destroyed, then that must mean there is no more sin or death in creation, and all one has to do to know that is a lie from Satan is take a look at the world around them.
All of creation as you purport, has nothing to do with the text...read:

Creation:

Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Creation of Israel:

Jer 4:23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, [it was] without form, and void; and the heavens, and they [had] no light.

Romans 8 is about those who are in covenant...Paul is covering Israel as the creature and creation through all of Romans, and it is them, with Gentile believers, that are awaiting the manifestations of the sons of God. This has nothing to do with what you see around you...this kingdom is in spirit.

Quote:
If you are trying to convince me that sin and death have been destroyed, i cannot take anything that you say seriously. That is preposterous ...
This is because, dear Ironmaw, you consider the kingdom of flesh.
You seek a sign, but it is already within and complete.
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Old 01-25-2011, 01:58 AM
 
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Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
More accusations and judgments....don't you ever stop, or is this your idea of edifying Christ...I am really getting sick and tired of your attitude, and your inability to have a Christian conversation with someone who disagrees with you.

As it will always be, for those not in Christ. When I die Ironmaw, DEATH has no hold over me, therefore I will never die...I am in union with God, He is in me, Christ is in me, and I will never die, and never be separated from Him.
Don't you want that? You can't have it now if you think the second coming is future. I am sorry, but that is the plainest of the plainest. Christ came to bear sin, and a second time, He will bring salvation. According to the writer of Hebrews, you do not have salvation. I do.

Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Already realized for Paul, why can't it for Christians?
Seems fulfilled to me.

How about another?

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.



All of creation as you purport, has nothing to do with the text...read:

Creation:

Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Creation of Israel:

Jer 4:23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, [it was] without form, and void; and the heavens, and they [had] no light.

Romans 8 is about those who are in covenant...Paul is covering Israel as the creature and creation through all of Romans, and it is them, with Gentile believers, that are awaiting the manifestations of the sons of God. This has nothing to do with what you see around you...this kingdom is in spirit.

This is because, dear Ironmaw, you consider the kingdom of flesh.
You seek a sign, but it is already within and complete.

I dont understand how you guys can say that someone is "judging" or "accusing" you of something just because they say that they believe that you have been deceived.

You know very well that you believe that i am deceived, yet you don't think that you are judging me and those who believe the way that I do?

I believe that it is a dishonest tactic used in an attempt to not only discredit those who disagree with you but also in order to throw the whole debate off track and perhaps get the Mods to bring some action against them.

How many posts have you made lately where you accuse others of "rejecting the scriptures", or "rejecting the gospels"?

Are you not judging others according to your own words and how you are saying that i am judging and accusing you of being deceived?

Lets get real here, and stop with the whole judgment thing. I believe you are saved even if i believe that you are believing a lie, if that is not enough for you than there is nothing else i can say.



The fact is i find the whole "covenant creationism" teaching to be elitist and violent and evil. I don't want any part of it. And if that was "the gospel truth", i wouldn't want anything to do with it.

It doesnt make me feel good, and it doesn't give me hope, in fact it vexes my spirit.

If i perceived the scriptures to be saying what you believe they are saying, i would reject it altogether, just like i reject the elitist and violent traditions of fundamentalist Islam.

I love all people, and if you believe God does not, i don't want anything to do with your understanding of God.

I want all people to be saved, and if you believe that God does not, i don't want anything to do with your understanding of God.

Just like if you believed God raped women and molested little children, then i wouldn't want anything to do with your understanding of God.

Its all the same to me. I believe its violent, elitist, and ultimately perverted ...

Cant you understand that Sciotamicks, have i made myself clear?

I love you, but i despise your religion ...

For you to say that all people who have a different religion than you don't even exist is to me an abomination.

How can you care about people you don't even think really exist?

Now im sure this post will be deleted, but i hope you read it. I am not at odds with you, but i am at odds with what you believe about God and his plan for creation.



Peace ...

Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 01-25-2011 at 02:08 AM..
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Old 01-25-2011, 04:51 AM
 
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Sciotamicks and Ironmaw

You both seem to be off topic -- the topic is Would a Plan annul God's and our own freewill?
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