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Old 01-25-2011, 11:48 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,292,960 times
Reputation: 420

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
I dont understand how you guys can say that someone is "judging" or "accusing" you of something just because they say that they believe that you have been deceived
Ironmaw...you don't even see what you are doing...I don't think you are decieved....because I don't believe there is an alternate deceptor except your own heart....remember....FP..Satan has been destroyed....70 AD...the temple's fall was the sign for all events that surrounding the "end."

Meerkat is right...this has gone off topic to an extent.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Greatest I am View Post
Would a Plan annul Godís & our free will?

If God has this great plan, that we and he cannot deviate from, then none of us, including God, have free will.
What if His plan was already consummated and complete?
Would it not consist of only the individual plan for His people, living in the Age to Come?

Quote:
f we can deviate from it then we can say that we, including God, have free will.
Sure we can deviate from the plan, not of God, but ours, and being a Christian, God will correct us. If we are not Christian, His plan is but a mystery, if indeed the person in question was destined to the kingdom. If not, His plan for that person is moot. Can I say this with surety? No....because man is not God....that he would sin, or repent.

Quote:
To believe in the plan is to believe, as I do, that all is perfect at any given point in time.
Yes!

Quote:
Most do not follow my thinking on this because they do not understand the perfection of the reality we live in.
Most believe we live under imperfect condition.
I get you...Heb 10:14 comes to mind.. For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Quote:
If things are not perfect right now, then it would mean that we are off the plan.
Imperfection within the perfect plan.

Is that even possible in your thinking?

How do you resolve this catch 22 paradox?
No need to resolve this. When I am "in heaven" (meaning that I will be wherever Christ is) 1 Thess. 4:17 forever, I will be forever growing towards perfection in the sense of becoming more Christlike. Yet, even then, to assume that I will have achieved all I can ever achieve is a rather depressing idea. The idea of "ultimate perfection" is akin to saying that we will be "gods". That is a pagan idea rooted in gnostic and Hellenistic culture.
There is and always will be only one God. The "perfection" we achieve is the IMPUTED perfection achieved only through Christ's work on the cross.

Why do I need more perfection if the goal is for God to dwell with me? You don't need anything more than what you have already. Namely, you have a relationship with God restored by Jesus Christ. The best thing that will change "in heaven" is the incessant exposure to sinners that wears us down on a daily basis. We also will be in a state of being that gives us constant strength to deal with all that comes our way. This strength will come from our continual closeness to God. At the moment, we are distant from God because of our flesh. Then, when the flesh is shed, we won't have that baggage keeping us from being all that we can be IN CHRIST!
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Old 01-25-2011, 12:15 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,207,476 times
Reputation: 892
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Ironmaw...you don't even see what you are doing...I don't think you are decieved....because I don't believe there is an alternate deceptor except your own heart....remember....FP..Satan has been destroyed....70 AD...the temple's fall was the sign for all events that surrounding the "end."
Oh, so instead of judging me and accusing me of being decieved by satan, you are judging me and accusing me of decieving myself? Oh, well that is much better ...

Quote:
Meerkat is right...this has gone off topic to an extent.....
Yes, she is right ... Lets get past the accusation and judgment tactic and stick with the debate ... Please carry on.
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Old 01-25-2011, 04:23 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,292,960 times
Reputation: 420
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
Oh, so instead of judging me and accusing me of being decieved by satan, you are judging me and accusing me of decieving myself? Oh, well that is much better ...
I never said you were deceived....I was presenting what I believe...my apologies that you have taken "your" to mean yours personally.....I meant all of ours....including mine....it deceives me sometimes.....that's why I must search it for Christ....within all the mess.... I don't think you are deceived......just in error...because mainly of the UR paradigm,....it has muddled up the entire chronological events that surround the eschatological end....

But take it as you will......so how does it feel? Not good I imagine.....even the slightest insinuation can hurt...it also brings out the worst in people....maybe try another approach next time to your opponents that ascribe to ET?...try just talking and debating respectfully, because in my opinion, your conversations as of late, have appeared to me, and many others, as outright demeaning and derogatory. We are all guilty of it one way or another, but it must be pointed out, or else people will continue to be rude and hurtful.....and that my friend, is not a free pass into the kingdom.......attack the view, not the person.

Quote:
Yes, she is right ... Lets get past the accusation and judgment tactic and stick with the debate ... Please carry on.
Much better...thank you.
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Old 01-30-2011, 11:28 AM
 
1,736 posts, read 1,838,586 times
Reputation: 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Ironmaw...you don't even see what you are doing...I don't think you are decieved....because I don't believe there is an alternate deceptor except your own heart....remember....FP..Satan has been destroyed....70 AD...the temple's fall was the sign for all events that surrounding the "end."

Meerkat is right...this has gone off topic to an extent.....



What if His plan was already consummated and complete?
Would it not consist of only the individual plan for His people, living in the Age to Come?



Sure we can deviate from the plan, not of God, but ours, and being a Christian, God will correct us. If we are not Christian, His plan is but a mystery, if indeed the person in question was destined to the kingdom. If not, His plan for that person is moot. Can I say this with surety? No....because man is not God....that he would sin, or repent.



Yes!



I get you...Heb 10:14 comes to mind.. For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.



No need to resolve this. When I am "in heaven" (meaning that I will be wherever Christ is) 1 Thess. 4:17 forever, I will be forever growing towards perfection in the sense of becoming more Christlike. Yet, even then, to assume that I will have achieved all I can ever achieve is a rather depressing idea. The idea of "ultimate perfection" is akin to saying that we will be "gods". That is a pagan idea rooted in gnostic and Hellenistic culture.
There is and always will be only one God. The "perfection" we achieve is the IMPUTED perfection achieved only through Christ's work on the cross.

Why do I need more perfection if the goal is for God to dwell with me? You don't need anything more than what you have already. Namely, you have a relationship with God restored by Jesus Christ. The best thing that will change "in heaven" is the incessant exposure to sinners that wears us down on a daily basis. We also will be in a state of being that gives us constant strength to deal with all that comes our way. This strength will come from our continual closeness to God. At the moment, we are distant from God because of our flesh. Then, when the flesh is shed, we won't have that baggage keeping us from being all that we can be IN CHRIST!
I see another without morals that would try to profit from the murder of an innocent man.
Stop it. It is quite ugly and not what God wants acording to scripture.

As to mankind being as God's being a Gnostic take, did A & E not show us how to be as Gods? God says they did so do not blame Christian theology on pagans. I know that Christians always like to lay the blame for their stupid dogma elsewhere but it has come to roost where it belongs.

Regards
DL
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