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Old 01-16-2011, 09:43 PM
 
Location: Somewhere
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
Exactly. When He gave the commandments, He revealed his will/desire to us, and we went against it. When He said "love your neighbor", He revealed His will for us. He desired us to love our neighbors, but that is not always what happens. In other words God permits us to go against His will. That's all I was saying.
No God never went against it. How can you believe in God if you also believe that God goes against His own will? - are you a closest a"theist" that is pretending to be Christian in order to instill that some doubt?
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Old 01-16-2011, 09:45 PM
 
Location: Somewhere
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
No you can't trettep, because the Jew, who knew the law, the prophets, and Moses, whom all pointed to Christ and the gospel, chose the flesh, and those who chose what the above revealed, became the heirs of promise and the sons of the free woman. Someone who is unsaved is neither carnal, or spiritually minded, because they have no law. Paul is addressing himself and those of his creed that chose Christ...from one father - Abraham, but of the free woman, and since he is proclaiming the law to these men and women, who are none other than his congregation...most likely Clement's, who live in Rome, and are Christians!!
Yeah those chose the flesh because God told them to choose and the Old Covenant shows that carnal man would not choose and cannot choose God. Hence a New Covenant. Someone who is unsaved is indeed carnal regardless of the law. To be carnal is to serve one's own fleshy desires. We don't need the law to understand that.
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Old 01-17-2011, 06:59 AM
 
Location: Miami, FL
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trettep View Post
No God never went against it. How can you believe in God if you also believe that God goes against His own will? - are you a closest a"theist" that is pretending to be Christian in order to instill that some doubt?
No name calling or judgment of faith is necessary since I didn't say God went against it, I said people went against it.
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Old 01-17-2011, 07:22 AM
 
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There are two concepts here: God's intentions and God's will. God's intentions are ultimately for us all to follow His will. But on the way to reaching that goal, sometimes His intentions run contrary to His stated will. For example God's will is that we be obedient. But His intention (at least short-term - ie. this life) is for us to be disobedient. He does this for a purpose.

God intends for people to go against His will as we see here:
Romans 11:32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

and here:
Romans 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

and here:
Rom 9:16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

and here:
2 Thes 2:11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie

and here:
Gen 50:20 You intended to harm me, but God intended it for good to accomplish what is now being done, the saving of many lives.

For certainly if God truly intended us not to be disobedient, he would not:
1. bind us over disobedience
2. subject us to vanity (also called frustration and futility)
3. harden hearts
4. send a delusion so we would not believe the truth

Furthermore, if we were never disobedient:
5. God would not achieve His intended greater good as seen in Genesis 50 with the story of Joseph and his evil brothers, nor would we see the full effect of His power and glory and mercy.
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Old 01-17-2011, 07:43 AM
 
Location: Miami, FL
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
There are two concepts here: God's intentions and God's will. God's intentions are ultimately for us all to follow His will. But on the way to reaching that goal, sometimes His intentions run contrary to His stated will.
Yes, God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked, yet He will judge them if they do not repent. He desires us to repent, but He will never force us to repent. If we do not repent, He will judge us, and we will pay the price.

He asks "why will you die" which is a clear indication that man causes his own death by rejection of God. It is crystal clear God wants US to repent, because He is not going to repent for us.

“Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. 31 Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel? 32 For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!

Last edited by Finn_Jarber; 01-17-2011 at 08:26 AM..
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Old 01-17-2011, 08:15 AM
 
Location: Somewhere
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1Co 4:7 For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?

If we have unbelief ,then we received it from another. If we have belief, we received it from another.
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Old 01-17-2011, 10:19 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trettep View Post
Yeah those chose the flesh because God told them to choose and the Old Covenant shows that carnal man would not choose and cannot choose God. Hence a New Covenant. Someone who is unsaved is indeed carnal regardless of the law. To be carnal is to serve one's own fleshy desires. We don't need the law to understand that.
No they aren't. You are assuming a paradigm without any Biblical support.
The scriptures say they are in darkness, not carnality, but aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world.

You cannot hate that which is not there.
The scriptures also say without law there is no sin.
How can one hate, be at enmity, without law, that which is neither there?

To be carnal is to know about one's fleshly desires, and you don't know of your desire being good or bad, knowing it different from not, without law.

There is no right or wrong, without law.
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Old 01-17-2011, 01:16 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Adam was created imperfect. He fell...why?...because he was imperfect!
Christ showed us only He can be perfect.

There is no catch 22....God's plan was Christ.
Adam was created in the image of God ... who is perfect.
Adam and Eve were once perfect and had a choice.
Adam and Eve fell because they chose evil.
Christ came to restore peace to the creation and God. Those who believe in Christ's perfection for them will be saved from the wrath of rebellion

That was God's plan after the first rebellion.
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Old 01-17-2011, 01:32 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
There is no right or wrong, without law.

Yet sin was still in the world prior to the law being given.
    • "for before the law was given, sin was in the world." Romans 5:13
Therefore, the only reason people (and other things) die is because of sin (the state of...not soley the actions of). Sin is what seperates a person from God. Sin is held accountable, and that accountability is proven by a physical and spiritual death.
    • "Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command" Romans 5:14
All that the law did was to increase the infractions against God.
    • "The law was added so that the trespass might increase." Romans 5:20
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Old 01-17-2011, 01:33 PM
 
Location: Somewhere
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
No they aren't. You are assuming a paradigm without any Biblical support.
The scriptures say they are in darkness, not carnality, but aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world.

You cannot hate that which is not there.
The scriptures also say without law there is no sin.
How can one hate, be at enmity, without law, that which is neither there?

To be carnal is to know about one's fleshly desires, and you don't know of your desire being good or bad, knowing it different from not, without law.

There is no right or wrong, without law.
The knowledge of the law is not needed to understand our carnal nature.

1Co 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ

1Co 3:3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

1Co 3:4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?


That is Paul speaking to Gentiles who would not have been under the Law.
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