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Old 01-17-2011, 01:38 PM
 
Location: Somewhere
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
Adam was created in the image of God ... who is perfect.
Adam and Eve were once perfect and had a choice.
Adam and Eve fell because they chose evil.
Christ came to restore peace to the creation and God. Those who believe in Christ's perfection for them will be saved from the wrath of rebellion

That was God's plan after the first rebellion.
Think about what your saying. Your saying what is perfect is NOT perfect. ;-)

For if your perfect then you couldn't fall. Otherwise, why would we need to be perfect if perfection is a state of imperfection?

We are told by the Lord to be perfect as our Father in Heaven is Perfect.

The Perfect man wouldn't fall:

Jas 3:2 For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body.
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Old 01-17-2011, 01:54 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trettep View Post
Think about what your saying. Your saying what is perfect is NOT perfect. ;-)

For if your perfect then you couldn't fall. Otherwise, why would we need to be perfect if perfection is a state of imperfection?

We are told by the Lord to be perfect as our Father in Heaven is Perfect.

The Perfect man wouldn't fall:

Jas 3:2 For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body.
In the NT Jesus said: be perfect
In the OT God commanded: be holy

That is what we are putting our faith in ..
The OT God had a perfect lamb sacrifice to be the subsitute,
  • The NT John the baptist says ... "Behold the Lamb of God"
The OT God had Moses lifting up snake for people to look upon to be saved from dying
  • The NT God had Jesus being lifted up on a cross
\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\

What I'm saying is that we are perfect in the sight of God despite that we are not perfect because of the subsitution.

God's plan for us to escape the wrath is by believing in the subsitute.
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Old 01-17-2011, 02:57 PM
 
Location: Somewhere
6,370 posts, read 5,627,358 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
In the NT Jesus said: be perfect
In the OT God commanded: be holy

That is what we are putting our faith in ..
The OT God had a perfect lamb sacrifice to be the subsitute,
  • The NT John the baptist says ... "Behold the Lamb of God"
The OT God had Moses lifting up snake for people to look upon to be saved from dying
  • The NT God had Jesus being lifted up on a cross
\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\

What I'm saying is that we are perfect in the sight of God despite that we are not perfect because of the subsitution.

God's plan for us to escape the wrath is by believing in the subsitute.
There is only one definition of perfect. Adam was NOT perfect even before he took of the forbidden fruit. To be perfect requires at least the knowledge of Good and Evil. For God (The Father in Heaven is Perfect) and we read that He has the knowledge of Good and Evil.
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Old 01-17-2011, 03:13 PM
 
Location: Toronto, ON
2,333 posts, read 2,442,246 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greatest I am View Post
Would a Plan annul Godís & our free will?

If God has this great plan, that we and he cannot deviate from, then none of us, including God, have free will.
If we can deviate from it then we can say that we, including God, have free will.

To believe in the plan is to believe, as I do, that all is perfect at any given point in time.

Most do not follow my thinking on this because they do not understand the perfection of the reality we live in.
Most believe we live under imperfect condition.
If things are not perfect right now, then it would mean that we are off the plan.
Imperfection within the perfect plan.

Is that even possible in your thinking?

How do you resolve this catch 22 paradox?

Regards
DL

The weird yet perfect plan.
Satan, a surprise to God.
Losing 1/3 of angels.
Eden, the fall.
Exodus, harden Pharaohís heart.
Repent of creating man.
Use genocide on man.
Having his son murdered.
End time, another genocide.
Having more souls in hell than heaven.
Begin as master of all. End as a back sliding master of just some.
All these failures for God in his perfect plan?

It's simple to render the free will for the All-knowing It Is in God as opposed to the self-consciously moral to limitations it is for a human. The human is Job.

When the world of God's free will is changeable, Job's stayed un-changeing. When the limitless field of Job stained Him with the perceivable chance of change, God's Right was to be un-wavering Changelesness. One could call this the nature of things for the externally uncreated Being. Free will just confronts Nature Sir. That is the the source of Human Rights, the source of Human Rights for All consciousness's.

Why did Job get so much bad luck? Beyond imagination for anything probabilistic: the one amongst many.
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Old 01-17-2011, 04:36 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,285,528 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
Adam was created in the image of God ... who is perfect.
Adam and Eve were once perfect and had a choice.
Adam and Eve fell because they chose evil.
Christ came to restore peace to the creation and God. Those who believe in Christ's perfection for them will be saved from the wrath of rebellion

That was God's plan after the first rebellion.
twin...I understand what you are saying.....but think about it for a minute....if Adam was created perfect, then why would there need to be a law of obedience when he was perfect to begin with? The first Adam was imperfect from the moment he was created, having been formed out of the dust of the ground Genesis 2:7. He did not become imperfect because he sinned. He sinned because he was imperfect, otherwise, he would not have been capable of sinning, because he was perfect.

Last edited by sciotamicks; 01-17-2011 at 04:50 PM..
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Old 01-17-2011, 04:38 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
Yet sin was still in the world prior to the law being given.
    • "for before the law was given, sin was in the world." Romans 5:13
Therefore, the only reason people (and other things) die is because of sin (the state of...not soley the actions of). Sin is what seperates a person from God. Sin is held accountable, and that accountability is proven by a physical and spiritual death.
Which law are you referring to?

Quote:
    • "Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command" Romans 5:14
All that the law did was to increase the infractions against God.
    • "The law was added so that the trespass might increase." Romans 5:20
You mean Galatians 3:19..... When was law first given?

12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned— 13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. Rom. 5:12-14

"For until the law sin was in the world." Sin existed before the law. Men sinned before the law was given.

"Sin is not imputed when there is no law." No one was held guilty of sin, before the law was given.

"Death reigned from Adam to Moses
(and beyond aorist tense)."

Isn't death an imputation of sin?

Therefore Adam had the law. (Had law, the article is not in the Greek.)

And therefore, sin existed in the world before Adam was given law.

What law was Adam given?

"Don't eat of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil."

Good, but was that all?

In Exodus 18, Moses judged the people and taught law. Where did Moses get that law? The Ten Commandments were given in Exodus 20. The rest of the law follows. What law was Moses judging with and teaching before he received the law?

In Genesis 38, Judah understood and knew he was bound to Levirate marriage laws. These were not given until Deuteronomy 25. How did Judah know them? Why was he bound by them?

Noah knew which animals were clean and unclean. Who told him?

Cain and Abel knew how to conduct a proper sacrifice. How? Cain knew murder was wrong? Why?

Law predates Sinai. Law was given before Sinai. Adam was the first to transgress the law.

Adam transgress/violated the law in Genesis 3. Death reigned from Genesis 3 on. Sin was imputed from Genesis 3 on.

Adam was given law before Genesis 3, that is, in Genesis 1 and/or 2....as well.
Sin existed in the world before law was given. This is evident from comparing Genesis 1:2 with Jeremiah 4:22-23

22 For My people are foolish,
They have not known Me.
They are silly children,
And they have no understanding.
They are wise to do evil,
But to do good they have no knowledge.
23 I beheld the earth, and indeed it was
without form, and void;
And the heavens, they had no light.



In Jeremiah 4:22-23 and Genesis 1:2, we see sin with no knowledge. In Gen. 1:3, we finally see the light.

Twin...In Romans 5 Paul is referring to is not the Mosaic Law, but the law of sin and death....Adam's transgression...unless you want to discount all the sins prior to Sinai....and every scholar I have read on this subject, liberal to conservative, will not touch that...I am sure you won't....or?

Last edited by sciotamicks; 01-17-2011 at 05:04 PM..
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Old 01-17-2011, 04:46 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trettep View Post
The knowledge of the law is not needed to understand our carnal nature.
Scripture?

Quote:
1Co 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ

1Co 3:3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

1Co 3:4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?

That is Paul speaking to Gentiles who would not have been under the Law.
bretheren...Corinthian congregation...that is who 1st and 2nd Corinthians is addressed to unless you are attempting to rewrite history for us?
Paul has spoken to us about three categories of men. There is the natural man...1 Corinthians 2:14, who is patterned after Adam and rejects the things of the Spirit. There is the spiritual man...1 Corinthians 2:15, who knows the things of God. And there is the carnal man who knows the things of God, yet in some significant ways is still characterized by the flesh. The Corinthian Christians thought of themselves as spiritual, but their divisions show that they are in fact fleshly, as Paul points out throughout the letters.
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Old 01-17-2011, 05:34 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,822 posts, read 9,810,005 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trettep View Post
There is only one definition of perfect. Adam was NOT perfect even before he took of the forbidden fruit. To be perfect requires at least the knowledge of Good and Evil. For God (The Father in Heaven is Perfect) and we read that He has the knowledge of Good and Evil.
God didn't create anything less than good. Everything was perfect and in balance to God's will.

The knowledge of evil was to remain unknown. The wrath that God has in store for Satan for his rebellion wasn't something to be shared. God was basically saying to them (A&E) ....
Don't eat from that tree because you don't want to see this side of me that will deal with rebellion....because you will.
And the rest they say is .... His story (history)
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Old 01-17-2011, 05:47 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,822 posts, read 9,810,005 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post

Twin...In Romans 5 Paul is referring to is not the Mosaic Law, but the law of sin and death....Adam's transgression...unless you want to discount all the sins prior to Sinai....and every scholar I have read on this subject, liberal to conservative, will not touch that...I am sure you won't....or?
Until Moses, what was considered "the law" did not exist. The 10 commandments were not given until Mt. Sinai. Paul's point was still the curse for disobeying was still in effect prior to Moses. The law of sin and death....Adam's transgression is commonly known as original sin.

What Adam's transgression did was to take away our free will. From Adam on ... death is not an option.

Death is proof that our condition is - we are sinful, not choose to become sinful.
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Old 01-17-2011, 06:42 PM
 
Location: Somewhere
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Though man can choose and decide in earthly matters, he does not have freedom of the will in spiritual matters, but is spiritually blind and dead. Only when the Holy Spirit creates faith in His heart does he again have freedom in spiritual matters.
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