U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
 
Old 01-18-2011, 04:16 PM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,424,185 times
Reputation: 683

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
God didn't create anything less than good. Everything was perfect and in balance to God's will.

The knowledge of evil was to remain unknown. The wrath that God has in store for Satan for his rebellion wasn't something to be shared. God was basically saying to them (A&E) ....
Don't eat from that tree because you don't want to see this side of me that will deal with rebellion....because you will.
And the rest they say is .... His story (history)
This is part of the fundamental problem with your belief.

"The knowledge of evil was to remain unknown"? Really? How would we ever come to a full knowledge of the truth if we did not know of evil? How we would be able to gain a knowledge of good if we did not know good and evil? How would we be ever in God's image without that knowledge?

Furthermore - if it was to remain unknown, why didn't it? Why create the tree of knowledge and put it right beside Adam&Eve knowing full well they would eat of it - if it was meant to remain unknown? Illogical contradictory belief.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 01-18-2011, 04:20 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,301,111 times
Reputation: 420
Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Why create the tree of knowledge and put it right beside Adam&Eve knowing full well they would eat of it
To give them a choice. To act...freely. To bring about Christ. So that we, can choose freely, Christ's work.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-18-2011, 04:20 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,218,209 times
Reputation: 892
Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
This is part of the fundamental problem with your belief.

"The knowledge of evil was to remain unknown"? Really? How would we ever come to a full knowledge of the truth if we did not know of evil? How we would be able to gain a knowledge of good if we did not know good and evil? How would we be ever in God's image without that knowledge?

Furthermore - if it was to remain unknown, why didn't it? Why create the tree of knowledge and put it right beside Adam&Eve knowing full well they would eat of it - if it was meant to remain unknown? Illogical contradictory belief.
Exactly ...

Its like they believe that God is hiding the truth from himself, or wishes that he could. Or like God has this pipe dream but man just messed everything up and God had to resort to plan B.

I call it the "Dr. Frankenstein" problem ...
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-18-2011, 05:34 PM
 
37,660 posts, read 25,365,683 times
Reputation: 5865
Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Illogical contradictory belief.
The mainstream fundy beliefs have no logic in them . . . neither do they recognize the contradictions in them. It is an intellectually impenetrable wall of dogmatic ancient ignorance that cannot be breached by anyone but God in His good time. Patience and tolerance, my brother.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-18-2011, 08:19 PM
 
Location: missouri
1,179 posts, read 1,179,989 times
Reputation: 151
Sorry, there is logic in them. They have a systematic theology, and that logically structures it (quality is the issue of the structures). Actually new knowledge moves through contradiction so that is a good thing. Without it we reach the conclusion, and it is highly unlikely that any human knowledge is finished, well except for those with hubris.

Generally, know it alls accuse others of being illogical because their logic disagrees with the others logic and then unreflectively do not notice their own contradictions, which means they can not progress their thought. That is why all this discourse is so inane.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-18-2011, 10:28 PM
 
Location: Somewhere
6,370 posts, read 5,645,603 times
Reputation: 575
Quote:
Originally Posted by allen antrim View Post
Sorry, there is logic in them. They have a systematic theology, and that logically structures it (quality is the issue of the structures). Actually new knowledge moves through contradiction so that is a good thing. Without it we reach the conclusion, and it is highly unlikely that any human knowledge is finished, well except for those with hubris.

Generally, know it alls accuse others of being illogical because their logic disagrees with the others logic and then unreflectively do not notice their own contradictions, which means they can not progress their thought. That is why all this discourse is so inane.
Then a test is at hand. What say you:

1.) Is God all powerful?
2.) Is God all knowing?
3.) Does God doing anything in vain?
4.) Can God fail?
5.) If God desires to do something can He accomplish it?
6.) If God desires to do something will He accomplish it?
7.) Can man turn God from His desire for them?
8.) Is it God's Will that works in those that are to be saved?

"Free will" is so loosely and very often contradictorily defined (as others have pointed out here), that such discussion amount to the fact that "Free will" is a nothing more than choice. But who argues that we don't have choice? (we make choices every day). But to say or imply that anyone (not that you have) can make choices freely as we decide is fiction. I can decide to drive my car in a straight line to the grocery store, but the fact is that if I did I would run into obstacles and not be able to accomplish that desire and in fact would end up making a DIFFERENT choice that is more applicable to my inabilty to make the previous choice and therefore by weakness I will eventually come to make the best choice that gets me to the grocery store. So all those obstacles are COSTS and not FREE. So this idea of FREE will is not found in scripture or everyday life. To believe that I can make a choice is sure but that doesn't mean that the choice can be accomplished or is therefore the wise choice or an achievable outcome.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-18-2011, 11:55 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,825 posts, read 9,849,885 times
Reputation: 1302
Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
This is part of the fundamental problem with your belief.

"The knowledge of evil was to remain unknown"? Really? How would we ever come to a full knowledge of the truth if we did not know of evil? How we would be able to gain a knowledge of good if we did not know good and evil? How would we be ever in God's image without that knowledge?

Furthermore - if it was to remain unknown, why didn't it? Why create the tree of knowledge and put it right beside Adam&Eve knowing full well they would eat of it - if it was meant to remain unknown? Illogical contradictory belief.
God's image was perfect, humans were not created omniscient. It's not illogical unless one is accusatory.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-19-2011, 12:15 AM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,825 posts, read 9,849,885 times
Reputation: 1302
Quote:
Originally Posted by trettep View Post
Then a test is at hand. What say you:

1.) Is God all powerful?
2.) Is God all knowing?
3.) Does God doing anything in vain?
4.) Can God fail?
5.) If God desires to do something can He accomplish it?
6.) If God desires to do something will He accomplish it?
7.) Can man turn God from His desire for them?
8.) Is it God's Will that works in those that are to be saved?
1). all powerful to his pleasure ...not your baited question for #7
2). omniscient
3). God does things to his pleasure ... not to your opinion of what is vain
4). God does his will to his pleasure ... not to your opinion of what is failure
5). accusatory by implication
6). accusatory by implication
7). accusatory and blasphemous in nature ... Rather man rejects God's desire for them
8). John 6:40
"For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life"
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-19-2011, 12:52 AM
 
Location: missouri
1,179 posts, read 1,179,989 times
Reputation: 151
I thought the test was mine! Well thanks for taking it, I am beyond tests.

I am not sure what I am to say. I do not buy free will, and am what would be labeled a despised calvinist, or maybe a neo one, beats me. Logic, or I prefer reason, and let Quine goof with logic, would seem to entale all thought, even Heidegger thought so.

A systematic theology, and I know both free will folks and election folks, and god has a plan folks, and moslems that blow up folks, work with reason (and logic is in there somewhere). A systematic theology has to move between moments of the structure. Bad structures would not fit very well together as a system, and the better structures fit nicely. Fitting up nicely doesn't make them true through, if that is the concern, it just forms up a structure that holds together nicely. Someone on another thread said that they did not see any logic in theology, that is just plain nonsense, read Anselm, it moves from point to point and is easy to see that it is set in reason.

It seems to me, that it would be better to say, "so and so has a crummy X (put in the theology or theory here), and here is why" rather than say there is no logic. The fact that Palin can put together sentences entails some logic or reasoning, as people understand her. Just cause one don't like Palin or her ideas doesn't mean there is no logic in them or her.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-20-2011, 10:48 AM
 
1,736 posts, read 1,840,649 times
Reputation: 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Adam was created imperfect. He fell...why?...because he was imperfect!
Christ showed us only He can be perfect.

There is no catch 22....God's plan was Christ.
God planned right from the beginning to have his son murdered?

Nice God and father.

Is that what you would plan for your son?

Regards
DL
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2018, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top