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It amazes me that in the linguistic usage of permissive, men believe that their desire supersedes the ultimate will of the father of all creation.
Unbelievable!
That's the point exactly. There are different wills, and you confuse 'ultimate' with 'permissive'.
Was is God's desire that people obey the 10 commandments? Yes, or no? They would not be called commandments, unless they were meant to be obeyed. Was it Jesus's desire to gather Israel? He said it was His desire, but He also said He did not get what he desired?
It WAS God's will that we obey the commandments, but we did not, and therefore we acted against God's desire. Yes, it is possible to do so. If obedience to the commandments had been His ultimate will, then He would have made it impossible for us to disobey them.
I believe that God has different types of 'will', only one of which is 'imposed by power' (That being God's ultimate will and plan for the creation of this world and mankind).
God also has an individual will (desire) for our lives ... "that all should come unto repentence and none should perish" -- however, scripture goes on to say, "BUT, the Day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night" --- suggesting here, and elsewhere, that this 'will' of God, will not be imposed by force on the rebellious and unwilling.
God also has a circumstantial or situational will for our lives; ... that we submit to and obey Him and live the type of righteous life in relationship with Him, that He created us to live. However, SIN gets in the way -- and, even when we intend to obey, we sometimes fall short of the mark (Rom 7).
But, by God's Grace toward mankind, He has provided the 'sin solution' -- Jesus Christ, through whom all have the opportunity to be saved. However, by God's will, He also created people with the 'free will' opportunity to choose to accept or reject/ignore His individual and circumstantial will. His will is that all who accept His will, will receive the love, life and relationship He offers; AND, that all who choose throughout this lifetime to reject/ignore His will, will also receive what they have willfully chosen: ... eternal separation from God.
While the latter is not God's will (desire); He 'cannot' overturn or cancel-out man's choice, without, at the same time, cancelling-out mercy, grace and the value of Christ's sacrificial death.
Please, Let me ask you these questions:
1.) Am I carnal before I am spiritual?
2.) Does a carnal man hate God?
3.) If a Carnal man hates God, then why would that carnal man ever come near to God?
We do have free will of course, and God does have plans that will not be revoked. That's not a contradiction. There is a such thing as predistination. Jeremiah would be an example. Jeremiah was a little seed that God took from Heaven and planted it in the earth. However, Jeremiah did have a limited free will.
John the Baptist is also a good example - even better than Jeremiah. The two last witnesses are other examples. Revelation is an example - Nothing can change what's written in Revelation. What people fail to understand is that when God speaks to us about the future its not allways his plan but he does know what is going to happen in the future.
Another example would be Pharoah. He intentionally hardened Pharoahs heart. He allready knew Pharoahs heart and he is God, he can do things like this for his Glory. If he knows Pharoah has allready made his choice, he is perfectly just in using him for his Glory.
So what about Paul's heart before his conversion? He was persecuting the very children of God. What was the reason for Paul's conversion?
Yes, God has different wills. For example He desired people to obey the 10 Commandments, but no one did, and Jesus desired to gather Israel under his wings, but they refused, and God desires that all men would believe Christ, but many reject Him. God permits us to act against His will, and that equates to free will. It is God's permissive will.
God gave them the law and told them to make a choice as to who they would serve. They SAID they would serve God but we know that they didn't and what God showed was that they couldn't. That is the message we learn of the Old Covenant. But the reality is that all that believe DO OBEY His Commandments and that eventually ALL will obey. So His DESIRE is still unfolding.
God gave them the law and told them to make a choice as to who they would serve. They SAID they would serve God but we know that they didn't and what God showed was that they couldn't. That is the message we learn of the Old Covenant. But the reality is that all that believe DO OBEY His Commandments and that eventually ALL will obey. So His DESIRE is still unfolding.
Was it God's desire that they build idols and worship them and false Gods instead of the almighty God?
I wonder, because that is what happened, although the first commandment says "You shall have no other gods before me."
By responding to the Gospel...the power of it is there, in Christ, from God...completed work. Since Paul claimed he had preached it in all the world, then Matt 24 is fulfilled...complete, and the Gospel now is there for those who ...drink freely, to knock on His door...to "come" to Him. Some accept it, some do not, some backslide and fall out of grace....some deny it altogether...but some believe it with all their heart, as did the jailer by witnessing the power of God,..he believed and he was saved...then he was baptized as was his house....trettep...as I see it...election is over. That was a first century concept, dealing with the remnant of Israel. When God, Jesus said to the Jews....No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. The resurrection, or the GWTJ as some refer to, is for Israel only. Not Gentiles, no other except for that who was a Jew, or practiced Judaism. God/Jesus was calling out...drawing the lost house of Israel, the remnant, the "elected", to Him, to bind the body of Christ with the Gentile "body" in Christ, making them one bride. By that fullness and completion...the resurrection occurred, and those Jews, who died in Adam, along with Adam himself, was "raised" on the last day.
God doesn't need to draw anyone to Him...the Gospel does that on its own....It is alive and very powerful...just look around....2 billion believers worldwide...from a meager 500 is 33 AD....that is good statistics. His work is finished....now we just come, and He finds sincerity and circumcision in us, and saves us from mortality and darkness. When one comes across verses such as the one above, we tend to think it is about someone other than a Jew or in today's terms, a Christian, which it isn't. God need not to elect anymore, the Gospel does that...and God uses whatever means, events, situation and circumstances in that person who has already responded to the Gospel, and brings...or draws in the case of the lesson of the Jews, who knew the LAW....shadow of the Gospel, applicable to us today, closer to Him.
Something we today call...our walk with Christ.....We are perfected by one sacrifice, in that we are "forever" "being" sanctified.
It is a journey to perfection, which Paul said....If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
Last edited by sciotamicks; 01-16-2011 at 03:08 PM..
But I WONT respond if I'm carnal. That is the point. The carnal mind HATES God.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
enmity = hate
So if I'm carnal, that scripture tells me that I hate God, and therefore, it is incomprehensible that something that hates something else will then choose it.
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