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All along I, and others, have said that EVERY choice has something that CAUSES them to make a certain choice. Again you prove this by your very words. For you say this....
But earlier you state this....
Yep....when it comes to CAUSES Mike, you are 100% correct by your own words again. Freewill by its difinition can NOT answer the question of "WHY??? or What is the reason for?" (for the answer would give you the CAUSE). For you say...
"Satan deceived Eve...." Yep she was CAUSED to do so
(Gen 3:13 And the LORD God said unto the woman, What (Heb: Why?) is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled (Heb: seduced, decieved....THERE IS YOUR CAUSE) me, and I did eat.
"..and through her CAUSED Adam"
Yet again...another CAUSE
"As Satan was the cause of why death came into the world..."
Yet again...another CAUSE
Agian, nobody is debating whether man makes 'choices' or has a choice or not. What is being presented, once again, is that fact that WITHOUT the INFLUENCE, CAUSING, MANIPULATING of God FIRST, man will NEVER choose Him. All those you mentioned (Moses, David, Joseph, etc...) where CHOSE by God FIRST. The evidence in the bible is UNDENIABLE in this fact.
And as for Universalism being temporarily banned from CD....I did not get that from the sticky. Did any one else? All I saw was the banning of the debates on a certain subject. Just look at the subject of all the threads that were locked.
Free will is nothing more or less than the ability to choose one thing or another thing. It has nothing to do with being able to make an uncaused decision. Every decision has consequences which leads to other consequences. If the term free will causes you problems then simply use the term volition.
As far as God choosing man, God chooses everyone who decides to answer the call of the Gospel. Man decides based on the information of the gospel whether or not he will say yes. If he says yes, then God chooses him. Predestination is not to salvation, but to what those who receive the offer of salvation are predestined to.
The gospel causes man to have to make a decision. Of his own free will or volition, man can make the decision to say 'yes', or he can make the decision to say 'no.'
Last edited by Michael Way; 01-21-2011 at 12:31 PM..
Free will is nothing more or less than the ability to choose one thing or another thing. It has nothing to do with being able to make an uncaused decision. Every decision has consequences which leads to other consequences. If the term free will causes you problems then simply use the term volition.
That is not God's way.
Example. I offer you a piece of cake or a piece of ****.
It happens that you are not hungry and choose neither.
For your free will to remain intact I cannot force you.
God offers heaven or hell.
It happens you want neither but God says then off to hell with you.
So much for your free choice.
In the counsel of divine decrees God decreed that all of man's decisions and the consequences of those decisions would be made certain. Having free will means that there will be outcomes to volitional choices. If you choose to break a law, you must pay the penalty for your decision to break that law. It's a matter of volitional responsibility.
Any infinite punishment for a finite sin is immoral.
To torture and burn someone for a mistake made in the first .0000000000000000000000001 % of their life is immoral as hell.
If your God punishes like that then your God is a real immoral ***** and-------
Example. I offer you a piece of cake or a piece of ****.
It happens that you are not hungry and choose neither.
For your free will to remain intact I cannot force you.
God offers heaven or hell.
It happens you want neither but God says then off to hell with you.
So much for your free choice.
Regards
DL
Free will is nothing more than the ability to make a volitional choice based on knowledge of the facts regarding the outcome of the decision.
A man knows there's a penalty for commiting a certain crime. He decides of his own free will or volition whether he will commit the crime or not.
Decisions always have consequences.
You give a definition to free will which is not warranted.
Free will is nothing more or less than the ability to choose one thing or another thing. It has nothing to do with being able to make an uncaused decision.
And yet....AND YET...in EVERY instance that there is a CHOICE given in the bible, there is a CAUSE that caused them to choose 'yes' or 'no'. You said it yourself sir...Eve was CAUSED to eat of the tree....Adam was CAUSED to eat of the tree....Satan CAUSED..etc.
The defintion of "volition" is exactly what you say it is "to make a choice". It is nothing more or less than the "WILL".
What you are not understanding is the the concept of "FREE-volition" or "FREE-will".
To look up the defintion of "free", one would see a plethora of words such as "unimpeded, uninfluenced, of no cause, unconstrained, unrestrained, exempt from external causes or influences...etc."
This is pretty cut and dry sir. All one has to do to prove this point is to ask the question "Why?..or What is the reason of this...or the like"
Hi Mike I've been reading your posts here and it looks like you have caught yourself in a trap. If Adam was perfect how could he, even with imagined free will, make an imperfect choice? That would make him imperfect.
Adam was perfect, perfect for the purpose he was created. That purpose was to let sin into the world and therefore death so God's plan would be advanced, the plan of creating man in his image.
Remember God saw the end before the beginning. He knew everything that was and is to occur. He had provided a savior before the fall because he knew and planned for it to happen.
I also think that Satin, who was created as a adversary for man, was created perfectly for the purpose that he was created. He was not a fallen angel. In Ezekiel 28 you claim that even though it says the king of Tyre it means Satin. In Ezekiel 28:9 It says to the king of Tyre, "You are a man" Satin is not and never was a man. Also Jesus said that Satin was liar and a murderer from the beginning. Satin does exactly what God wants him to do. In the book of Job it describes how Satin could do nothing til God told him to and then when these things occurred to Job he did not blame Satin who did it, he knew that God is always in control. He said rightly, The Lord gives and the Lord take away. He may use Satin to do it but it is God who is always in control of his creation.
One more thing you have said I find kind of a paradox is you cite Romans 8:7 that says " Because the carnal mind is enmity against God:for it is not subject to the laws of God, neither indeed can it be. " You then say that the carnal mind can choose to follow Christ or not. That is in direct opposition of the verse you had just quoted, which says the carnal mind can not choose God. Even Jesus said that No man may come to me lest the Father draws him. In other words it is not us that chooses God it is God who chooses us. Till God's Grace is upon us we can not change our carnal nature.
I agree 110 percent. God calls things that are not as though they were. He sees the end from the beginning, and man and satan have NEVER been "out of His control."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
Read CAREFULLY the following.
Satan is the fallen angel we know as Lucifer. He was perfect until unrighteousness was found in him. Ezekiel 28:15 'You were blameless in your ways From the day you were created, Until unrighteousness was found in you.
God said that Satan was a murderer from the beginning - That is, from the beginning of the creation of man. This refers to the seduction of Adam and Eve. Death was pronounced as the penalty for sin, Genesis 2:17. Satan deceived Eve and through her caused Adam to sin and they became subject to death, Genesis 3. As Satan was the cause of why death came into the world, he may be said to have been a murderer in that act, or from the beginning.
To the contrary. Both Isa 14 and Eze 28 speak of Satan. He is called a cherub in Eze 28:14,16. Revelation 12:7 speaks of Satan and his angels.
Satan before he fell had had the privilege of serving as honor guard protecting the righteousness of God. He had been the anointed cherub who covered the mercy seat (Eze 28:14). The real mercy seat is in heaven. On the lid of the ark of the covenant there was a representation of the mercy seat, there were two cherub angels which covered the mercy seat. Satan had been one of the two cherubim who covered the mercy seat in heaven.
Mike,
I know you can't hear this, but I'll say it anyways, because I like you.
The name "Satan" and "devil" and "serpent" etc... are not mentioned in the OT verses you cite.
The reason? They are not talking about Satan! They are verses directed at man.
Man is what God is concerned with. Man is who God came to save (and succeeded). Man is the one who receives the message of salvation. Man is the one God made in His image, and the one God plans to render like Himself.
What you propose are nothing more than doctrines of devils.
But the Gospel is for man, and man alone.
God planted the tree of knowledge in the "midst" of the garden, where Adam could see it day after day after day after day after day... until he fell.
And it was part of God's plan, because God placed Jesus Christ as Savior before the world began.
God knows what He's doing; He's not losing any battles, He's not counting the cost; He's not worried of being rejected or defeated; He's fulfilling His plans of salvation for all mankind. Starting with Jesus Christ.
Sin has been paid for by Christ and is not the issue in salvation. The issue is whether or not a person will accept God's offer of salvation through faith in Christ. If he does, then he is imputed with God's own righteousness and eternal life and is qualified to spend eternity in God's presence. If he rejects Christ then he is left depending on his own relative human righteousness which God must always reject because it does not measure up to His perfect righteousness. And therefore the unbeliever will spend eternity future separated from God. He does die in his sins but is not judged for them. He is instead condemned on the basis of his own righteousness (Revelation 20:11-15).
Sin has been paid for by Christ and is not the issue in salvation. The issue is whether or not a person will accept God's offer of salvation through faith in Christ. If he does, then he is imputed with God's own righteousness and eternal life and is qualified to spend eternity in God's presence. If he rejects Christ then he is left depending on his own relative human righteousness which God must always reject because it does not measure up to His perfect righteousness. And therefore the unbeliever will spend eternity future separated from God. He does die in his sins but is not judged for them. He is instead condemned on the basis of his own righteousness (Revelation 20:11-15).
You go ahead and profit from the murder of an innocent man. A real moral thng to do.
God will really like to see you and your ilk ridding on Jesus' back at heavens gate. Be ready to be sent to the hell that you crave so much to exist for others.
God is absolute perfection. And He is absolutely HOLY. His standards are absolute and He demands perfect obedience from His free will creatures. The existence of free will made it possible for His creatures to choose to rebell against God. God desired for His creatures to have free will in order to have a relationship with them based on reciprocal love.
God did not 'screw up'. God does not repent. What Genesis 6:5-7 says about God repenting is what is called an anthropopathism. Ascribing to God a human characteristic which He does not really have in order to by means of language of accomodation explain the divine policy of perfect and infinite God toward sin and evil, in a way which the finite mind of man can understand.
God does not murder. God pronounces judgment on those who transgress against Him. The penalty for sin was spiritual death (loss of relationship with God) which occurred immediately, and the resulting physical death which in Adam's case was many hundreds of years later.
Nor does God lie. It was man who sinned against God and bore the consequences of that decision to disobey God.
I have a question for you Mike, do you believe that God has free will? For instance, can God lie?
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