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Old 01-15-2011, 01:49 PM
 
1,736 posts, read 1,836,575 times
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Would a Plan annul Godís & our free will?

If God has this great plan, that we and he cannot deviate from, then none of us, including God, have free will.
If we can deviate from it then we can say that we, including God, have free will.

To believe in the plan is to believe, as I do, that all is perfect at any given point in time.

Most do not follow my thinking on this because they do not understand the perfection of the reality we live in.
Most believe we live under imperfect condition.
If things are not perfect right now, then it would mean that we are off the plan.
Imperfection within the perfect plan.

Is that even possible in your thinking?

How do you resolve this catch 22 paradox?

Regards
DL


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hk41Gbjljfo
The weird yet perfect plan.
Satan, a surprise to God.
Losing 1/3 of angels.
Eden, the fall.
Exodus, harden Pharaohís heart.
Repent of creating man.
Use genocide on man.
Having his son murdered.
End time, another genocide.
Having more souls in hell than heaven.
Begin as master of all. End as a back sliding master of just some.
All these failures for God in his perfect plan?
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Old 01-15-2011, 04:15 PM
 
Location: Somewhere
6,370 posts, read 5,628,309 times
Reputation: 575
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greatest I am View Post
Would a Plan annul Godís & our free will?

If God has this great plan, that we and he cannot deviate from, then none of us, including God, have free will.
If we can deviate from it then we can say that we, including God, have free will.

To believe in the plan is to believe, as I do, that all is perfect at any given point in time.

Most do not follow my thinking on this because they do not understand the perfection of the reality we live in.
Most believe we live under imperfect condition.
If things are not perfect right now, then it would mean that we are off the plan.
Imperfection within the perfect plan.

Is that even possible in your thinking?

How do you resolve this catch 22 paradox?

Regards
DL


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hk41Gbjljfo
The weird yet perfect plan.
Satan, a surprise to God.
Losing 1/3 of angels.
Eden, the fall.
Exodus, harden Pharaohís heart.
Repent of creating man.
Use genocide on man.
Having his son murdered.
End time, another genocide.
Having more souls in hell than heaven.
Begin as master of all. End as a back sliding master of just some.
All these failures for God in his perfect plan?
Please define "Free will"
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Old 01-15-2011, 05:14 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,286,196 times
Reputation: 420
Adam was created imperfect. He fell...why?...because he was imperfect!
Christ showed us only He can be perfect.

There is no catch 22....God's plan was Christ.
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Old 01-15-2011, 06:06 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,380,473 times
Reputation: 437
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greatest I am View Post
Would a Plan annul God’s & our free will?

If God has this great plan, that we and he cannot deviate from, then none of us, including God, have free will.
If we can deviate from it then we can say that we, including God, have free will.

To believe in the plan is to believe, as I do, that all is perfect at any given point in time.

Most do not follow my thinking on this because they do not understand the perfection of the reality we live in.
Most believe we live under imperfect condition.
If things are not perfect right now, then it would mean that we are off the plan.
Imperfection within the perfect plan.

Is that even possible in your thinking?

How do you resolve this catch 22 paradox?

Regards
DL


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hk41Gbjljfo
The weird yet perfect plan.
Satan, a surprise to God.
Losing 1/3 of angels.
Eden, the fall.
Exodus, harden Pharaoh’s heart.
Repent of creating man.
Use genocide on man.
Having his son murdered.
End time, another genocide.
Having more souls in hell than heaven.
Begin as master of all. End as a back sliding master of just some.
All these failures for God in his perfect plan?
Here's a link on free will and atheism, which I agree with for the most part.

Got Atheism? Prayer, Sin, and Free Will (Oh My!)

And here are some links by a believer in the Restitution of All Things who describes why Calvinist's are right, why free will is part of a great delusion, and why everything will be restored at the end of the ages.

The Lake of Fire - Part 15
The Lake of Fire - Part 15-B
LAKE OF FIRE - Part 15-C
L. Ray Smith - The Lake of Fire - Part 15 - Part D
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Old 01-16-2011, 09:11 AM
 
Location: Somewhere
6,370 posts, read 5,628,309 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Adam was created imperfect. He fell...why?...because he was imperfect!
Christ showed us only He can be perfect.

There is no catch 22....God's plan was Christ.
Yes, I agree with sciotamicks here. I don't why people claim Adam was perfect. Everyone shows that was not the case.
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Old 01-16-2011, 09:30 AM
 
5,408 posts, read 4,659,683 times
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Satan was perfect, until he rebelled -- and so was Adam. God's will did not succeed in these creatures because God limits Himself by giving His creation free will. God is the one who limits Himself because He offers the alternative to serving Him.

Conversely, 2/3 rds of His angels remained obedient. Also, Jesus, when He took on the flesh, remained obedient to the Father's will. As Jesus was faced with the crucifixion, His emotions and feelings did not want to go through with the horror that was before Him; but, in obedience, He pushed His feelings aside and rose up in divine love, which leads to obedience, to carry out the Father's will. Now, He sits at the right hand of the Father in glory.
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Old 01-16-2011, 09:45 AM
 
Location: Somewhere
6,370 posts, read 5,628,309 times
Reputation: 575
Quote:
Originally Posted by scgraham View Post
Satan was perfect, until he rebelled -- and so was Adam. God's will did not succeed in these creatures because God limits Himself by giving His creation free will. God is the one who limits Himself because He offers the alternative to serving Him.

Conversely, 2/3 rds of His angels remained obedient. Also, Jesus, when He took on the flesh, remained obedient to the Father's will. As Jesus was faced with the crucifixion, His emotions and feelings did not want to go through with the horror that was before Him; but, in obedience, He pushed His feelings aside and rose up in divine love, which leads to obedience, to carry out the Father's will. Now, He sits at the right hand of the Father in glory.
Satan was never perfect and neither was Adam.

Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

So as you can see, God's Word shows that Satan was a murderer from the very beginning.

But think about it. If Satan was perfect at one time, then what/who tempted him to be imperfect?
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Old 01-16-2011, 10:00 AM
 
5,408 posts, read 4,659,683 times
Reputation: 1113
Quote:
Originally Posted by trettep View Post
Satan was never perfect and neither was Adam.

Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

So as you can see, God's Word shows that Satan was a murderer from the very beginning.

But think about it. If Satan was perfect at one time, then what/who tempted him to be imperfect?
Satan was made perfect, until iniquity took him over.

Ezekiel 28
[13] Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
[14] Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
[15] Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
[16] By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
[17] Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
[18] Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
[19] All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

Last edited by scgraham; 01-16-2011 at 10:46 AM..
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Old 01-16-2011, 10:18 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,286,196 times
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How can iniquity act on its own accord?
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Old 01-16-2011, 10:36 AM
 
17,699 posts, read 8,870,974 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
How can iniquity act on its own accord?

Where do you find iniquity?
Is it not, in the heart of Mankind?
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