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Old 01-18-2011, 02:09 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
His audience is believers and he is talking about rewards for people who people who build on the foundation of Christ. Only believers build on the foundation of Christ.
Paul didn't mention anything about believing on Christ in that passage either. He writes about building on the foundation which is Christ.

And if Christ is the savior of all people as the scriptures clearly teach, then every person builds on the foundation of what Christ did for us all, whether or not a person believes. Christ died not only for our sin(believers), but also for the sin of the whole world(Jhn 1:29, 1 John 2:2, Hbr 9:26).

The work of Christ on the cross took away the sin of the whole world, regardless whether or not someone believes. The people who Paul mentions who have works of gold and silver are people who believing on Christ manifest the fruits of the spirit. Those who have no good works have not the fruits of the spirit in their lives(i.e. are not true believers).

And as i have shown so many times before, and nobody ever disputes or even acknowledges it, the fact is even if this passage was speaking only about the judgment of Christians, then those who have no good works must be wicked servants if not unbelievers, and Christ was very clear that the fate of the wicked servant is the same as that of the unbelievers.


Luke 42 12:46
The Lord answered, “Who then is the faithful and wise manager, whom the master puts in charge of his servants to give them their food allowance at the proper time? It will be good for that servant whom the master finds doing so when he returns. I tell you the truth, he will put him in charge of all his possessions. But suppose the servant says to himself, ‘My master is taking a long time in coming,’ and he then begins to beat the menservants and maidservants and to eat and drink and get drunk. The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers.


So in the wicked servant or "bad Christian" is assigned his place with the unbelievers, then the fact that he is saved as passing through the fire also means that the unbelievers will be as well.

So which ever way you want to interpret it, the fact is unbelievers will be saved as passing through the fire.

 
Old 01-18-2011, 03:28 PM
 
Location: Miami, FL
58,493 posts, read 31,880,770 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
Paul didn't mention anything about believing on Christ in that passage either. He writes about building on the foundation which is Christ.

And if Christ is the savior of all people as the scriptures clearly teach, then every person builds on the foundation of what Christ did for us all, whether or not a person believes.
There are those who come to Christ and hear His teachings and puts them into practice are the ones who build on foundation of Christ. They are believers. And then there are those who build on sand, - unbelievers. Even shaky works are considered works as long as they are on the foundation of Christ. Anything not on the foundation of Christ will be washer away, because without faith it is impossible to please God. You can pour millions of dollars into helping the poor, but without faith, it will not please God. Good works are good only if they are done to glorify God.

Luke 6:46-49 “Why do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say? As for everyone who comes to me and hears my words and puts them into practice, I will show you what they are like. They are like a man building a house, who dug down deep and laid the foundation on rock. When a flood came, the torrent struck that house but could not shake it, because it was well built. But the one who hears my words and does not put them into practice is like a man who built a house on the ground without a foundation. The moment the torrent struck that house, it collapsed and its destruction was complete.”

Last edited by Miss Blue; 01-18-2011 at 03:41 PM.. Reason: red font is reserved for mod notes
 
Old 01-18-2011, 03:40 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,199,823 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
There are those who come to Christ and hear His teachings and puts them into practice are the ones who build on foundation of Christ. They are believers. And then there are those who build on sand, - unbelievers. Even shaky works are considered works as long as they are on the foundation of Christ. Anything not on the foundation of Christ will be washer away, because without faith it is impossible to please God. You can pour millions of dollars into helping the poor, but without faith, it will not please God. Good works are good only if they are done to glorify God.

Luke 6:46-49 “Why do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say? As for everyone who comes to me and hears my words and puts them into practice, I will show you what they are like. They are like a man building a house, who dug down deep and laid the foundation on rock. When a flood came, the torrent struck that house but could not shake it, because it was well built. But the one who hears my words and does not put them into practice is like a man who built a house on the ground without a foundation. The moment the torrent struck that house, it collapsed and its destruction was complete.”

I understand the correlation you are seeing, but you are missing a few subtle points. Christ is speaking about those who practically build their lives on the foundation of the truth which his words demonstrate.

But that is why Christ had to die, because in truth nobody is able to put the words of Christ into practice in their lives completely.

Christ was referring to the righteousness based on works, which no person is able to do.

Paul was referring to righteousness based on what Christ did for us.

You see Christ and his perfect fulfillment of the law and his work on the cross is the foundation in Pauls analogy while ones own works are the foundation in Christs ...


Paul is using a similar analogy to the one Christ used, but he has changed it.

Paul's analogy takes the work of Christ on the cross as granted, his life for the sin of the world.

That is to say that Christs analogy is spoken before his death and hints at the need for his work on the cross, while Paul's analogy already takes the work of Christ on the cross as granted, and that is why in Paul's analogy even those who have no good works, who have not practically applied the words of Christ in their lives, are still saved as though by fire.

Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 01-18-2011 at 05:09 PM..
 
Old 01-18-2011, 03:46 PM
 
Location: East Coast
30,182 posts, read 19,976,834 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
There are those who come to Christ and hear His teachings and puts them into practice are the ones who build on foundation of Christ. They are believers. And then there are those who build on sand, - unbelievers.

Luke 6:46-49 “Why do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say? As for everyone who comes to me and hears my words and puts them into practice, I will show you what they are like. They are like a man building a house, who dug down deep and laid the foundation on rock. When a flood came, the torrent struck that house but could not shake it, because it was well built. But the one who hears my words and does not put them into practice is like a man who built a house on the ground without a foundation. The moment the torrent struck that house, it collapsed and its destruction was complete.”
We love him BECAUSE he first loved me 1 John 4:9 This is the foundation of our faith........

That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

Do you understand the teachings Jesus was referring to in the parable of the house built on the rock, are the same he spoke on the mountain side(the beautitudes)?.

All of them rooted and founded in who he is by nature and character. God is love. Jesus is the revelation of the heart of the Father. If you've seen me you've seen the Father, a man in a robe and beard ? no, the heart of God towards the world, He who is love, is the foundation of all things

He has taken me to the banquet hall, and his banner over me is love.Songs of Solomon 2:4

Last edited by pcamps; 01-18-2011 at 04:26 PM..
 
Old 01-18-2011, 03:56 PM
 
Location: Miami, FL
58,493 posts, read 31,880,770 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
That is why in Paul's analogy even those who have no good works, who have not practically applied the words of Christ in their lives, are still saved as though by fire.
Believers who have no good works are still saved. This is true. When you are saved, you are saved with or without works. If you have works, that's great because God will reward you for them, but works are not required for salvation. However, if you are not saved through faith in Christ, no amount of works can save you come the day of judgment. Again, this test in Corinthians is to test the works of believers only, and it has nothing to do with unbelievers.
 
Old 01-18-2011, 04:02 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,286,831 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Hi all,

1 Cor 3
12
If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

I believe this is understood to not be literal straw or wood being burnt up, but it is the works that are like straw and wood. This is a metaphor. It is speaking spiritually.

When does this happen? When are they burnt up (metaphorically speaking here)?

Does it happen in this life? Is it a continuous process that is happening throughout this life? or does it happen after this life at judgment day?
Great topic legoman, and good questions. Without straying from the context of it, Paul is exhorting "ministers" of the faith, pre-resurrection of the dead and GWTJ, which is a "works" based judgment, what will happen to those in the faith that are ministers and evangelists, what will occur at that specific judgment day....that is....for those post mortem. THis chapter deals with their works being not so good in their life, and because they are saved and follow God and try to be true to their faith, although falling into error, their focus of belief and circumcision is still the same, and that being so, since this is a "works" based judgment, those works will be "burnt" up, and their faith will guarantee them eternal life.
 
Old 01-18-2011, 04:07 PM
 
37,508 posts, read 25,238,629 times
Reputation: 5857
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
There are those who come to Christ and hear His teachings and puts them into practice are the ones who build on foundation of Christ. They are believers. And then there are those who build on sand, - unbelievers. Even shaky works are considered works as long as they are on the foundation of Christ. Anything not on the foundation of Christ will be washer away, because without faith it is impossible to please God. You can pour millions of dollars into helping the poor, but without faith, it will not please God. Good works are good only if they are done to glorify God.

Luke 6:46-49 “Why do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say? As for everyone who comes to me and hears my words and puts them into practice, I will show you what they are like. They are like a man building a house, who dug down deep and laid the foundation on rock. When a flood came, the torrent struck that house but could not shake it, because it was well built. But the one who hears my words and does not put them into practice is like a man who built a house on the ground without a foundation. The moment the torrent struck that house, it collapsed and its destruction was complete.”
There is NOTHING we puny humans can do to GLORIFY God ever . . . God IS Glory and nothing from us could EVER add to His Glory. Your Faith . . . built on concern over the intellectual "believe IN" of OT scriptures . . . is built on the sand of ancient ignorance. Jesus' DIRECT commands to "love God and each other" to fulfill ALL the law . . . does NOT even mention or imply that we must believe ANYTHING . . . just follow ("believe ON/INTO") Jesus' commands and follow what God has "written in our hearts.". That is how you put into practice what He has told us . . ."love God and each other" . . . NOT blindly "believe IN" a bunch of ignorant bible scriptures about God's wrath, vengeance, hell, or whatever . . . "written in ink."

Last edited by MysticPhD; 01-18-2011 at 04:18 PM..
 
Old 01-18-2011, 04:13 PM
 
Location: Miami, FL
58,493 posts, read 31,880,770 times
Reputation: 9411
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Great topic legoman, and good questions. Without straying from the context of it, Paul is exhorting "ministers" of the faith, pre-resurrection of the dead and GWTJ, which is a "works" based judgment, what will happen to those in the faith that are ministers and evangelists, what will occur at that specific judgment day....that is....for those post mortem. THis chapter deals with their works being not so good in their life, and because they are saved and follow God and try to be true to their faith, although falling into error, their focus of belief and circumcision is still the same, and that being so, since this is a "works" based judgment, those works will be "burnt" up, and their faith will guarantee them eternal life.
Well said.
 
Old 01-18-2011, 04:24 PM
Status: "Build the damn wall!" (set 8 days ago)
 
Location: The Haunted Mansion
15,150 posts, read 8,232,056 times
Reputation: 1546
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
There is NOTHING we puny humans can do to GLORIFY God ever . . . God IS Glory and nothing from us could EVER add to His Glory. Your Faith . . . built on concern over the intellectual "believe IN" of OT scriptures . . . is built on the sand of ancient ignorance. Jesus' DIRECT commands to "love God and each other" to fulfill ALL the law . . . does NOT even mention or imply that we must believe ANYTHING . . . just follow ("believe ON/INTO") Jesus' commands and follow what God has "written in our hearts.". That is how you put into practice what He has told us . . ."love God and each other" . . . NOT blindly "believe IN" a bunch of ignorant bible scriptures about God's wrath, vengeance, hell, or whatever . . . "written in ink."
If I wasn't sure before, I am now. You preach a works-based salvation.
 
Old 01-18-2011, 04:29 PM
 
37,508 posts, read 25,238,629 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmiej View Post
If I wasn't sure before, I am now. You preach a works-based salvation.
That would be incorrect . . . There is also NOTHING we can do to SAVE ourselves. Jesus did that for us ALL. It is finished. Salvation is not OUR problem . . . sanctification and justification is. We are saved and eternal no matter what we do . . . but what we sow will determine what we reap in the next life.
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