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Old 01-18-2011, 07:29 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Judaizers....covenant people wearing the old garment. I never said they didn't believe or disbelieve in Christ, I said the theme was about a Jew...who knew about the coming.....
Paul was the apostle to the Gentiles, and his letter's to the Corinthians were addressed to a gentile community in a gentile land, the land of Greece.

The "unbelievers" to whom Paul was referring in his letters were not Judaizers. They were the pagan authorities before whom Christians would drag each other while in dispute.

The word "apistos" refers in general to all those who are not members of the household of faith.

Paul's use of the same word that Christ used in the context in is found shows your interpretation to be in error.

Quote:
My point exactly.
Is your point that the "wicked servants" are judaizers, or is it the "unbelievers" are judaizers? If you mean the wicked servants than that is not necessarily the whole truth either, though those you call "judaizers"(who i understand to be legalists) may also fit into the description as well.

Quote:
You should know what "wicked" is defined as in the scriptures, and it is not one outside of the law.
One can be wicked regardless of whether or not they know the law. Wickedness is the natural unregenerate state of the carnal man, with or without the law.

Quote:
One cannot serve unless one knows of God.
Yes and the wicked servants are Christians who have no good works, who will be given their place among unbelievers and who will suffer loss but who will be saved as passing through the fire.

Quote:
Judaizers.
Some no doubt, though i prefer the term legalists.

Quote:
Judaizers.....don't you know your Biblical history?
I don't know where you are going with the whole "judaizers" thing, but yes i do know biblical history.

However in no way would i relegate the meaning of the letter to the churches in Asia which are found in the book of revelations to persons in history alone. It is obvious to me that the spirits of the churches which are described in the first part of revelations are still very present in the world today.

Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 01-18-2011 at 07:55 PM..

 
Old 01-18-2011, 08:07 PM
Status: "Build the damn wall!" (set 4 days ago)
 
Location: The Haunted Mansion
15,125 posts, read 8,222,812 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
That would be incorrect . . . There is also NOTHING we can do to SAVE ourselves. Jesus did that for us ALL. It is finished. Salvation is not OUR problem . . . sanctification and justification is. We are saved and eternal no matter what we do . . . but what we sow will determine what we reap in the next life.
OK, perhaps I was wrong. However, I have difficulty understanding your posts. I guess what confuses me is the red below.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
There is NOTHING we puny humans can do to GLORIFY God ever . . . God IS Glory and nothing from us could EVER add to His Glory. Your Faith . . . built on concern over the intellectual "believe IN" of OT scriptures . . . is built on the sand of ancient ignorance. Jesus' DIRECT commands to "love God and each other" to fulfill ALL the law . . . does NOT even mention or imply that we must believe ANYTHING . . . just follow ("believe ON/INTO") Jesus' commands and follow what God has "written in our hearts.". That is how you put into practice what He has told us . . ."love God and each other" . . . NOT blindly "believe IN" a bunch of ignorant bible scriptures about God's wrath, vengeance, hell, or whatever . . . "written in ink."
John 6

28 Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”
29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

Another question. Jesus spoke often of the impending wrath of God. Why do you believe this is not relevant?
 
Old 01-18-2011, 08:24 PM
 
1,897 posts, read 1,720,522 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
.... I said that without faith it is impossible to please God...
You mentioned this three times so far (I haven't read the whole thread), so I want to mention that the Young's Literal Translation says:

5By faith Enoch was translated -- not to see death, and was not found, because God did translate him; for before his translation he had been testified to -- that he had pleased God well, 6and apart from faith it is impossible to please well, for it behoveth him who is coming to God to believe that He is, and to those seeking Him He becometh a rewarder.


I'm no Greek scholar, so if anyone would like to chime in on this and share, please do. But according to YLT, you can please God without faith - just not well. That's actually a big difference!

Edit: It was mentioned 5 times in the thread, so I know this verse must be important to you. I only recently realized it said "impossible to please well" in the YLT.

Last edited by Bright Hope for Tomorrow; 01-18-2011 at 08:54 PM..
 
Old 01-18-2011, 08:35 PM
 
37,472 posts, read 25,217,301 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmiej View Post
OK, perhaps I was wrong. However, I have difficulty understanding your posts. I guess what confuses me is the red below.
John 6

28 Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”
29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”
The correct translation is "believe on/into" ( pisteuō eis) NOT the intellectual "believe in." "Believe on/into" Jesus is an inner acceptance at the subconscious level of the guidance of His Holy Spirit (our conscience) within using what God has "written in our hearts" by "loving God and each other". . . not "believing in" what is "written in ink." Scripture is USEFUL (profitable) for INSTRUCTION, period. That means it provides lessons to be learned and understood as we mature spiritually from the "milk" our primitive carnal ancestors needed to begin trying to develop self-control of our negative emotions and drives. We are supposed to be relying on the Living Word of God who abides with us as His Holy Spirit within to learn the spiritual "solid food" of mature spiritual understanding.
Quote:
Another question. Jesus spoke often of the impending wrath of God. Why do you believe this is not relevant?
Wrath is a negative consequence . . . and our savage ancestors only understood negative consequences as coming from an angry God. The negative consequences of falling off a cliff are the result of violating God's law of gravity. If they knew of God's law of gravity . . . our primitive ancestors would have considered the consequence part of the wrath of God. There are consequences of our life here that do not have anything to do with our salvation . . . Jesus took care of that for us ALL. But we still reap what we sow.

No one says God doesn't hold us accountable for our un-love . . . but having what you consider the wrong belief is not subject to accountability. God has no ego needs that must be assuaged by our fawning over Him or His Son. "Belief on" His Son is an inner conviction to Christ-like attitudes toward all human beings that results when we listen to Jesus' Holy Spirit within guiding us to what God has "written in our hearts." THAT is the "believe on" Jesus that matters . . . not what you proclaim to believe in. Pisteuō eis is used in the NT to represent the conviction and trust to which a man is impelled by a certain inner and higher prerogative and law of soul. This is what Paul referred to as the "law written in the hearts" even of unbelievers . . . who are a law unto themselves. As Paul states it in Romans 2:14

. . . When the Gentiles who have no law do by nature what the law prescribes, these having no law are a law unto themselves. They show the work of the law written in their hearts. Their conscience bears witness to them, even when conflicting thoughts accuse or defend them.

Last edited by MysticPhD; 01-18-2011 at 08:47 PM..
 
Old 01-18-2011, 09:53 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,284,911 times
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Your wrong Ironmaw.....the issue with the Corinthian church was Judaizers....the whole point of Paul leading up to 1 Cor 15 into 2 Cor 5 is because of the Juadaizer naysayers about the resurrection of the dead, and the Parousia. That's what Hymenaeus and Philetus were....2 Peter as well. Even your UR scholars will attest to that. Keep studying.
 
Old 01-19-2011, 05:32 AM
 
Location: Miami, FL
58,451 posts, read 31,853,456 times
Reputation: 9399
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bright Hope for Tomorrow View Post
Edit: It was mentioned 5 times in the thread, so I know this verse must be important to you.
Yes, faith is very important, since without faith a person cannot be saved, and without faith even good works are meaningless. Enoch pleased God so much that he did not have to experience the pain of death, but was taken to heaven alive.
 
Old 01-19-2011, 10:53 AM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,196,917 times
Reputation: 892
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Your wrong Ironmaw.....the issue with the Corinthian church was Judaizers....the whole point of Paul leading up to 1 Cor 15 into 2 Cor 5 is because of the Juadaizer naysayers about the resurrection of the dead, and the Parousia. That's what Hymenaeus and Philetus were....2 Peter as well. Even your UR scholars will attest to that. Keep studying.
Now i understand what you are making reference too. However, it is you who are mistaken, at least in part. The "Judaizers" do not come into the picture until second Corinthians. They were not even really an issue in the first letter to the Corinthians, but came into the picture some time between the writing of the two letters, around 57 AD according to some sources.

The only verse i quoted which uses the word unbelievers(apistos) in what may be a reference to Judaizers is 2 Cor 6:14.

Of course this only does more to strengthen my position. The false apostles and teachers to whom Paul refers and about whom he warns in second Corinthians were Jewish Men who confessed Christ as their lord. That is to say they professed to being Christians, but were in fact legalists who wanted to put gentiles under the law of Moses. These men were considered by Paul to be the same as unbelievers.

Just as Jesus said that the wicked servants have their place with unbelievers, but that does not limit the meaning of the word "apistos" as it is used in the scriptures to judaizers, and to try and maintain such a position is erroneous, though perhaps convenient for your own interpretation and exposition.
 
Old 01-19-2011, 11:00 AM
 
Location: Pikeville, Ky.
13,459 posts, read 21,197,034 times
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