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Old 01-16-2011, 11:52 PM
 
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So, the Bible says that Adam and Eve were the first humans and their sons were Cain and Abel who were the third and fourth humans, respectively.

After Cain killed Abel, god cast him out of Eden and gave him the mark so that he would not be killed by the other peoples of the world who knew that he was outlawed from Eden. However, if Adam and Eve were the first humans, then how could there already be existing peoples of the world that Cain needed protection from?

How does this make sense??? The Bible clearly references pre-existing civilizations that existed prior to and concurrent with Adam and Eve.
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Old 01-17-2011, 12:24 AM
 
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Originally Posted by TheEconomist View Post
So, the Bible says that Adam and Eve were the first humans and their sons were Cain and Abel who were the third and fourth humans, respectively.

After Cain killed Abel, god cast him out of Eden and gave him the mark so that he would not be killed by the other peoples of the world who knew that he was outlawed from Eden. However, if Adam and Eve were the first humans, then how could there already be existing peoples of the world that Cain needed protection from?

How does this make sense??? The Bible clearly references pre-existing civilizations that existed prior to and concurrent with Adam and Eve.
No. First, Cain and Abel were never in the garden of Eden. Adam and Eve were forced to leave Eden and Cherubim were stationed at the east of Eden to guard the way to the tree of life (Genesis 3:23,24).

At that time in history the human race was and had to be increased through sexual relationships with close relatives. Obviously, Adam and Eve had daughters, and so at first there were brother sister marriages. Over due course of time there was a sizable population. By the time that Cain murdered Abel, there were other people on the earth. Remember that people lived for many hundreds of years. Genesis 4:3 says that the murder of Abel happened 'in the course of time' due to Cain's anger at the Lord's rejection of his offering.

After the flood, the human population had to be rebuilt the same way, from a base of only eight people.

Last edited by Mike555; 01-17-2011 at 12:48 AM..
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Old 01-17-2011, 03:49 AM
 
Location: Texas
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Most people who read this account wonder why Cain should dread being killed, when it does not appear to them that there were any inhabitants on the earth at that time besides himself and his parents. To correct this mistake, let it be observed that the death of Abel took place in the one hundred and twenty-eighth or one hundred and twenty-ninth year of the world. Now, "supposing Adam and Eve to have had no other sons than Cain and Abel in the year of the world one hundred and twenty-eight, yet as they had daughters married to these sons, their descendants would make a considerable figure on the earth. Supposing them to have been married in the nineteenth year of the world, they might easily have had each eight children, some males and some females, in the twenty-fifth year. In the fiftieth year there might proceed from them in a direct line sixty-four persons; in the seventy-fourth year there would be five hundred and twelve; in the ninety-eighth year, four thousand and ninety-six; in the one hundred and twenty-second they would amount to thirty-two thousand seven hundred and sixty-eight: if to these we add the other children descended from Cain and Abel, their children, and their children's children, we shall have, in the aforesaid one hundred and twenty-eight years four hundred and twenty-one thousand one hundred and sixty-four men capable of generation, without reckoning the women either old or young, or such as are under the age of seventeen."

But this calculation may be disputed, because there is no evidence that the antediluvian patriarchs began to have children before they were sixty-five years of age. Now, supposing that Adam at one hundred and thirty years of age had one hundred and thirty children, which is quite possible, and each of these a child at sixty-five years of age, and one in each successive year, the whole, in the one hundred and thirtieth year of the world, would amount to one thousand two hundred and nineteen persons; a number sufficient to found several villages, and to excite the apprehensions under which Cain appeared at this time to labor.

Genesis 4:15 But the LORD said to him, "Not so; if anyone kills Cain, he will suffer vengeance seven times over." Then the LORD put a mark on Cain so that no one who found him would kill him.
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Old 01-17-2011, 04:38 AM
 
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stillkit, good post.

Let's not forget conditions were ideal back then. The woman could have bore quadruplets or more each time they had children. Of course maybe they didn't. We don't know.
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Old 01-17-2011, 06:34 AM
 
Location: Oregon
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Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
No. First, Cain and Abel were never in the garden of Eden. Adam and Eve were forced to leave Eden and Cherubim were stationed at the east of Eden to guard the way to the tree of life (Genesis 3:23,24).

At that time in history the human race was and had to be increased through sexual relationships with close relatives. Obviously, Adam and Eve had daughters, and so at first there were brother sister marriages. Over due course of time there was a sizable population. By the time that Cain murdered Abel, there were other people on the earth. Remember that people lived for many hundreds of years. Genesis 4:3 says that the murder of Abel happened 'in the course of time' due to Cain's anger at the Lord's rejection of his offering.

After the flood, the human population had to be rebuilt the same way, from a base of only eight people.
RESPONSE:

There you go. Biblical approval of incest!

When did incest become a sin? Or did it?
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Old 01-17-2011, 06:41 AM
 
Location: Texas
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Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
stillkit, good post.

Let's not forget conditions were ideal back then. The woman could have bore quadruplets or more each time they had children. Of course maybe they didn't. We don't know.
Thanks, but I can take no credit for that (which I should have indicated). It's a cut and paste from the link provided.

My own, half-formed, non-conclusive thoughts run toward the Nephilim, life on earth before the creation of man, the fall of Lucifer and his rebellious Angels and the earth in the interim between the creation of the the universe and the creation of man and the animals identified in Genesis 1:2 and beyond.
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Old 01-17-2011, 06:56 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stillkit View Post
Thanks, but I can take no credit for that (which I should have indicated). It's a cut and paste from the link provided.

My own, half-formed, non-conclusive thoughts run toward the Nephilim, life on earth before the creation of man, the fall of Lucifer and his rebellious Angels and the earth in the interim between the creation of the the universe and the creation of man and the animals identified in Genesis 1:2 and beyond.
It might be of interest to note the Nephilim is applied to the sons of Anak, who, at that time, were distinguished (Num.13:33).

Num 13:33 There we saw the distinguished (the sons of Anak are part of the distinguished ones). And we became, in our own eyes, like grasshoppers; so we became in their eyes.

They were simply human beings of natural origin. The term "nephilim" just means "distinguished" according to A.E. Knoch's work on that word in the Hebrew.
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Old 01-17-2011, 06:59 AM
 
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Originally Posted by ancient warrior View Post
RESPONSE:

There you go. Biblical approval of incest!

When did incest become a sin? Or did it?
Well of course there had to be incest in order to get the world's population going. It happened again after the flood when only 8 survived.

Lot's two daughters had sex with him in order to keep his line going.
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Old 01-17-2011, 07:14 AM
 
Location: Texas
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Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
It might be of interest to note the Nephilim is applied to the sons of Anak, who, at that time, were distinguished (Num.13:33).

Num 13:33 There we saw the distinguished (the sons of Anak are part of the distinguished ones). And we became, in our own eyes, like grasshoppers; so we became in their eyes.

They were simply human beings of natural origin. The term "nephilim" just means "distinguished" according to A.E. Knoch's work on that word in the Hebrew.

I don't know what translation you're using, but that's not how the KJV renders it. Not even close:

"And there we saw the giants, the sons of Anak, [which come] of the giants: and we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight."

The word translated into the English as "giants" in both instances is, indeed, the Hebrew word "nephiyl," which is defined as "giants," and it comes from the root word "naphal," which means "to fall, to be cast down, to fail."

How your translator's got "distinguished" from that is a mystery!
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Old 01-17-2011, 07:56 AM
 
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Below is an abbreviated article on the Nephilim by A.E. Knoch from Unsearchable Riches vol.22 (which I have permission to use)

The key to the subject of the Nephilim lies in the meaning of the name. For many years I could not see that any other derivation was possible except nphl, FALL. But, since I have analyzed all of the Hebrew word families, and recognize more and more the passive force of the letter n, I have come to admit the possibility of deriving it from phl, passive of DISTINGUISH. This has proven so satisfactory that no doubt lingers in my mind that this is the true signification of nphilim, DISTINGUISHED. The passive is inherent in the English word, so need not be expressed.

In Hebrew roots containing servile letters, which are used in the variations of grammar as well as the formation of roots, some of the forms may be spelled the same as words derived from a shorter root. So here nphl may be the passive form of phl. The matter must be tested by the resultant translation. In Genesis 6:4 the root DISTINGUISH is far preferable to FALL.

It is necessary to fix the correct derivation of nphlim. It is now spelled with an extra i in Hebrew texts, nphilim, but Kennecott's collation shows that most of the old Hebrew manuscripts, especially the Samaritan, leave out the i. In Genesis 6:4 only about a dozen out of nearly four hundred manuscripts have the extra i. In Numbers 13:33 Kennecott inserts the i in the first case, though the Samaritan omits it. Fifteen manuscripts also omit it. In the second case he leaves it out, and notes about twenty-six manuscripts which have it. This seems sufficient evidence to show that nphlim is the plural participle, is either from nphl, FALL, or a passive form of phle, DISTINGUISH.

Perhaps no better way to prove that, phle means DISTINGUISHED can be followed than to give the Authorized Version renderings. This will, at the same time, expose the bewildering variety of that version, and the need of a concordant translation. Note that the underlying thought common to every occurrence is DISTINGUISH. Anyone who is separated, wonderfully made, severed, set apart, on whom the Lord put a difference, is necessarily DISTINGUISHED. This term fits into each context. This is further confirmed by the other forms which use these two letters in their root. Thus phla means MARVELOUS, phll is MEDIATE, and nphl, FALL. That which is marvelous must be distinguished, and a mediator is distinguished from both sides. Following are the references of phle:
phle, DISTINGUISH, as in Authorized Version

Ex. 8:22 (18) and I will sever in that day
9: 4 and the Lord shall sever between
11: 7 the Lord doth put a difference between
33:16 so shall we be separated, I and thy
Psa. 4: 3 (4) and the Lord hath set apart him
139:14 I am fearfully and wonderfully made

In no case does distinguish imply physical size. The Israelites were not distinguished from the Egyptians by their stature, but by the judgments of God and the death of the firstborn (Ex.11:7). The same applies to the land of Goshen. It was not severed, but distinguished (Ex.8:22), as were the cattle of the Israelites (Ex.9:4). In Psalm 4:4 Yahweh distinguishes the kindly for Himself. The nphlim, to use the preferred form, were those who were distinguished above their fellows. As stated later on, they were "mortals with a name" (Gen.6:4).

There was a saying in the days of Moses which was known even among the tribes of Israel. Men asked, "Who can stand before the sons of Anak" (Deut.9:2)? These dwelt in Hebron, which was first known by the name of Anak's father, Arba. When the land was allotted, Hebron was given to Caleb. Thirty-eight years before, he and Joshua alone, of the twelve spies, had faith to enter the land. Hence Caleb was sent to drive out the sons of Anak, Sheshai, and Ahiman, and Talmai, for they were distinguished above all men for their valor in battle. On this account they and their forebears were called "nephilim."

Because these men were mighty in battle, it was inferred that they were giants. But this is in the context, not in the word. Those in the sixth of Genesis may not have been distinguished in the same way, or for the same reason, as the sons of Anak.

The fatal objection to making the Nephilim, the FALLEN, lies in the fact that it is applied to the sons of Anak, who, at that time, were by no means fallen (Num.13:33). The spies saw the nephilim, the sons of Anak, and were fearfully afraid of them because they could not visualize them as fallen at all! But this would not be sufficient ground to settle the significance. That which does definitely decide the point is the fact that these men were distinguished above all others of that day for their prowess in war. Even Israel had heard the saying, "Who can stand by before the sons of Anak" (Deut.9:2)? This proverb satisfactorily settles the sense of the name nephilim.

In the sixth of Genesis, the only other occurrence of the word, there is not sufficient in the context to determine its meaning, especially as the whole passage is somewhat unsettled. So the wise way is to go to its other occurrences and bring back to the first the evidence there found. Some may infer that, since the Anakim were giants, and were distinguished for their valor, the translation giants is warranted. But this is true only in a figurative sense. The usage of the verb does not, by any means limit the distinction to physical stature. In fact, it never refers to that. Sever, put a difference, be separated, set apart, and wonderfully made, never suggest giants. It is a mistake often made by students and lexicographers, but it is not logical to reason from the particular to the general. Men may be distinguished in many ways.

We are now ready to consider the context, so we present a tentative concordant rendering of Genesis 6:1-4:
And it is coming to pass that Adam starts to increase on the face of the ground, and daughters were born to them. 2 And sons of God are seeing the daughters of Adam that they are good. And they are taking wives of all whom they choose.
3 And Jehovah is saying, "My spirit shall not abide in Adam for the eon. He is in their error, and his days shall be a hundred and twenty years."
4 And the distinguished were in the earth in those days. And, moreover, afterward those who are sons of God are coming to the daughters of Adam and they bore for them. They are the mighty ones who are from the eon, mortals with a name.

One of the striking confirmations of the first of Genesis is contained in the creation of great monsters (Gen.1:21), such as no longer live on the earth today, but whose skeletons have been found preserved in the ground. So the sixth chapter provides a notable point of contact with the surviving myths of antiquity, which are filled with the shadowy forms of mighty men whose exploits kept their names alive for many a day, and whose powers have never been equalled in later history. These men lived at the beginning of our race, and by virtue of their superiority, they chose for themselves mates from the first family on earth. They wedded the daughters of Adam.

None of the names given to these nephilim suggest that they were spirit beings except the phrase "Sons of God." That this is far from conclusive is evident from the fact that Adam is called a son of God (Luke 3:38) and he certainly was not a spirit being. Sonship is used quite as freely of mankind as of messengers. Now all believers are sons of God in measure as they conduct themselves like God. The special title used of the nephilim, is Elohim, Disposer, Arbiter. It suggests that these mighty men acted as arbiters among their fellows and disposed of their inferiors as if they were in the place of deity. This accords with their mastery and the fame accorded them by their fellows.
Israel was called God's son in Hosea's prophecy (11:1,9). Moses was told to say to Pharaoh, "Israel is My son, My firstborn." To them Moses said, "You are the sons of Jehovah, your God" (Deut.14:1). Anyone who exercises the prerogatives of deity may be called a son of God. In the earliest days of the race, before human government had been instituted after the deluge, those who were distinguished above their fellows, who possessed a special measure of might, and whose fame gave power to their name, would naturally lord it over their inferiors and arrogate to themselves the prerogatives which belong to God. He is the absolute Arbiter. In their way they were like Him, hence His sons.
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