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Old 01-20-2011, 10:30 PM
 
Location: Texas
4,346 posts, read 5,572,639 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by allen antrim View Post
I hate to tell another where he/she came from as I do not have a personal history to guess, but generally
Yes, after posting I thought I should have added "of course you can't actually know but I just want your first thought/opinion"

Quote:
Originally Posted by allen antrim View Post
one is a product of the social you have found yourself in;
That's what's strange. The social I found myself in was a deep south bigoted/racist one. At about 6 years old something inside me said "No no no, wrong wrong wrong!".
Quote:
Originally Posted by allen antrim View Post
your values you pulled in from around you-your eyes are the center of the world, places you there, so that is where you judge it from.
That's what I'm saying - I rejected almost ALL of what I saw/heard. In my brief Church/Sunday school tenure (-9 mos. to +5 years old) I heard "Red and yellow black and white, they are precious in His sight" and something inside said "Yes yes yes, right right right!".

So - there is something more going on than just conditioning. Or so it seems.
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Old 01-21-2011, 12:10 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
Research what exactly did Michael Servetus believe and preach...and then look in the old testament and see how God said these things should be handled...And i would take Wiki with a grain of salt...It is not always the most reliable or unbiased source of information...
No. Wrong.
What did Jesus say to the Church? Looking into Jesus' words, Calvin was not obedient to Christ, and the Church is not under Moses.
Only the Jews are under the Torah, and the nation of Israel made a covenant with God, for blessing or cursing, for themselves and for their descendants, to keep His commandments to them, which no other nation was given. Also, Israel did not put any other nation under the Law they put themselves under, by Covenant, to the Commandments of YHWH.

But a Christian is under the commands of Christ, and Calvin broke the commandments of Jesus, and acted monstrously, like the Islamics, towards the enslaved masses under his control.
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Old 01-21-2011, 01:09 AM
 
Location: missouri
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The social is made up of lots of subsystems-when I use the term social I am referring to its complex makeup, not some monolithic singularity. No one of these systems can no longer dominate as there is leakage between them. That is a problem, say for feminists (as an example), the woman finds herself in several; such as family, church, job, political, etc. Each attempts through its own methods to exert influence and there is contradictions in them-this has increased as society has increased in complexity and differentiation. These other systems threaten the feminism, or the power it can exert over the woman (usually that is why cults isolate members). In Calvin's world there probably were fewer (well, not fewer but absorbed up into the religious or political, not as independent systems as today), and it would seem clearer or simpler as to one's actions, I imagine all this from present social systems theory (the social system there was hierarchical {king top and ruled from god, husband then mirrored this in the family, etc} and less differentiated as today; devine right was the rule not democracy {a pyramid view of culture, not our more horizontal view}, religion conditioned the view of reality not secularism and diversity; family, law, economics, order, and such would be viewed primarily as within the religious, and to try and apply strick simplistic biblical modern ideas and think they should have held the same is really stretching it within these varying contexts).

Why you said "no", well I don't know (I wish I did, it would solve some of my own curiosity), why did Calvin and Luther get some out from under the catholics by saying "no" (I guess this is where some people claim god spoke to them, I have no idea)? But kids can think too, and form their opinions up just as well as adults (not necessarily in quality, although some adults are dumber)-but even the language, song, visible abuse of blacks, and such, at the time (sunday school materials, radio, tv, etc) could have influenced you (at that age for me are a lot of gaps, but occasionally something surfaces and I am startled by it). I don't like the term conditioning. I feel the brain is a system. That would mean for me it functions from its own operations, that is why people vary, but one can not (aside from devine intervention and I am not too big a fan of that in a direct way) be free from the social, even if one rebells one needs it for that-values/anti values.

Kids have been found that have been nearly isolated from social contact (I have written this before and do not want to repeat myself, but to make a point)-they are merely animals or worse, because people are to be socialized as mental beings, but isolated as they were, they are not "human". The social is indispensable for good or ill. But the problem with raising kids, they can't be programed when socially raised, and one can't make them be what one wants all the time.

Of course there is room for genetic stuff I suppose, memory in cells and all that other stuff, maybe even former life stuff and ET; I have no idea, but I better add that. The eyes at the center also means what was called the transcendental observer. It was the concept that the person lifts himself out of the world and then observes from this out side the box position-the god look. I guess my position is one can not do that; in the south there was the old way and the growing new way-both social structures, and both had its supporters; supporters that took those transcendental views.

On another thread I have been posting my ideas that ethics is based in actual existence (I am of the old school and think reason fills all things, not just the mental), if that were true then it would seem that mind would have access to ethics that is outside of the social, but it would still need the social to eventually get to it.
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Old 01-21-2011, 01:34 AM
 
Location: missouri
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Oh, I do understand how that works, hahah!
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Old 01-21-2011, 01:39 AM
 
Location: Texas
4,346 posts, read 5,572,639 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by allen antrim View Post

Kids have been found that have been nearly isolated from social contact (I have written this before and do not want to repeat myself, but to make a point)-they are merely animals or worse, because people are to be socialized as mental beings, but isolated as they were, they are not "human". The social is indispensable for good or ill. But the problem with raising kids, they can't be programed when socially raised, and one can't make them be what one wants all the time.
I studied cases of feral children as well, and they validate a point you make later.
Quote:
Originally Posted by allen antrim View Post
Of course there is room for genetic stuff I suppose, memory in cells and all that other stuff, maybe even former life stuff and ET; I have no idea, but I better add that. The eyes at the center also means what was called the transcendental observer. It was the concept that the person lifts himself out of the world and then observes from this out side the box position-the god look. I guess my position is one can not do that;
I had an experience where it seems I did that, I'm sure to a small degree (as opposed to the infinite). Once when I was 7 or so and later during my "born again" experience at 20.
Quote:
Originally Posted by allen antrim View Post
On another thread I have been posting my ideas that ethics is based in actual existence (I am of the old school and think reason fills all things, not just the mental), if that were true then it would seem that mind would have access to ethics that is outside of the social, but it would still need the social to eventually get to it.
I think the feral children cases validate (at least) the bolded above.

Please link to the posts where with your ideas. It seems you may be a bit deeper than I (in some areas ).
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Old 01-21-2011, 06:51 AM
 
Location: Germany
1,647 posts, read 1,710,548 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
So did Moses and Paul.
this was before their "conversion", Calvin endorsed the murder of Servetus when he claimed to be a man of God and claimed to speak divine truth, and it is not recorded that Calvin, unlike Paul, ever regreted his crime

Quote:
It seems people are pointing out his, condemning him..... what did Jesus say to those who were condemning the prostitute ???
wanting to kill a prostitute and blaming a murderer for his crime are different things, don't you think?

personally I believe Calvin was a vicious man, as many men are that pretend to be men of God like Mohammed e.g. and other false prophets and teachers
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Old 01-21-2011, 09:33 AM
 
Location: Canada
6,643 posts, read 4,000,369 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trettep View Post
I was doing some research on John Calvin and came across some information that he killed a man. Isn't John Calvin the father of the fundamental movement?

I'm curious as to what "churches" subscribe to the views of Calvin.
Actually Calvin only consented to the persons death, he did not actually kill the person himself.

Does not make it much better but lets keep the facts straight.
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Old 01-21-2011, 11:58 AM
 
Location: missouri
1,179 posts, read 1,177,626 times
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The other post is in "Religion and Philosophy" and the thread is "Philosophy?" If there is a direct way to it from here I don't know what that is-my computer skills, well let us just say, that some day I will be compared to that unrepentant Calvin.
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Old 01-21-2011, 12:31 PM
 
2,981 posts, read 4,310,831 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma View Post
Actually Calvin only consented to the persons death, he did not actually kill the person himself.

Does not make it much better but lets keep the facts straight.
The facts are that David killed Uriah, through having his man put Uriah in the front of the battle, so that his death could happen in war.
For that act, David lost the son [who died in his place], and had the curse of the sword placed by God on his sons, and had the curse of his own wives molested in the sight of all Israel.
David repented of his act of blood-guilt, in Psalm 51, you can read his repentance and remorse.
David was chastened by his God, as God does do to his own, as the Word of God states.
Calvin was never chastened, never repented, and was, therefore, not God's own. He was a monster, and his god was a monster, who had babies born in Adam just so He could fuel the fires of eternal Hell with them, as pr. Calvin's doctrine, with no possibility of their redemption.
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Old 01-21-2011, 07:06 PM
 
Location: Somewhere
6,370 posts, read 5,634,337 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma View Post
Actually Calvin only consented to the persons death, he did not actually kill the person himself.

Does not make it much better but lets keep the facts straight.
Yeah he killed a man. We all did.
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