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Old 01-22-2011, 07:51 AM
 
Location: Canada
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yeshuasavedme View Post
The facts are that David killed Uriah, through having his man put Uriah in the front of the battle, so that his death could happen in war.
For that act, David lost the son [who died in his place], and had the curse of the sword placed by God on his sons, and had the curse of his own wives molested in the sight of all Israel.
David repented of his act of blood-guilt, in Psalm 51, you can read his repentance and remorse.
David was chastened by his God, as God does do to his own, as the Word of God states.
Calvin was never chastened, never repented, and was, therefore, not God's own. He was a monster, and his god was a monster, who had babies born in Adam just so He could fuel the fires of eternal Hell with them, as pr. Calvin's doctrine, with no possibility of their redemption.

What David did and what Calvin did are NOT the same thing.

Calvin consented to the death because of doctrine.

What Calvin did is no different then those who beleive people are consigned to death because they hold a different doctrine then others.

It's no different then a christian consenting to the death of a sinner because they believe the sinner is worthy of death.
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Old 01-22-2011, 03:11 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma View Post
Actually Calvin only consented to the persons death, he did not actually kill the person himself.

Does not make it much better but lets keep the facts straight.
David killed Uriah by his word given to have the man put in front of the battle line, in a war. David was guilty of the blood of iniquity, and said so, in Psalm 51, which is his repentance Psalm.
Calvin killed Servetus by having his henchmen burn him to death, after a mock trial -Servetus was even mocked by Calvin.
Calvin admitted he killed Servetus. Calvin had no heart to repent of blood guilt, because he had no heart, "having had his conscience seared as with a hot iron", as those in 1 Tinothy 4:2, had.

Quote:
After the incident:
Calvin wrote: "Many people have accused me of such ferocious cruelty that (they allege) I would like to kill again the man I have destroyed. Not only am I indifferent to their comments, but I rejoice in the fact that they spit in my face." The Murder of Michael Servetus
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Old 01-22-2011, 06:36 PM
 
Location: missouri
1,179 posts, read 1,178,376 times
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David gonna be beat to death here?

What is happening, and the more this goes on the more one learns, is some doctrinal construction building up towards over powering grace. It alway is that man wants to earn grace. Who says theology is dead?

Here is what I get so far. One can get a girl by impregnating her (its her fault by the way, the *****!) and killing her husband-all against the 10, back at the time. One just needs to repent. You see you are not god's until you repent, and you get a psalm (we will have to work on Jonah; the story has an ending that is not reconciled, and he wanted them all dead, all 150 thousand, well they weren't jews so who cares?, I guess, well moses killed, his henchmen I guess, and his wife thought he was bloody-but I am sure its all justifiable, killed several for, well heresy, I suppose, course he didn't need to repent, he did right, and then there are several prophets, but then we like them one and all).

In Calvin doctrine, grace is unmerited, but I can see above that it needs to be merited. God can not move without man's act (this is the same BS I have heard all my christian life in one sort or another and makes Jesus a nut case and liar). Now we need a structure that by catholic standards, or categorically, ranks sins. In other words just being a sinner is an unimportant base line (course, in calvin doctrine, the baseline damns you and the murders are works of the damned nature, just as David's nature is damned, and so is yours, and the viciousness here is a manifestation of that nature). Calvin is the worst, not because he killed a guy, but because he didn't repent, had he repented, all would be sunny and the multitudes would have accepted his doctrine. In the OT lesson that has been passing by here, the reasoning seems to me that had David not repented he would have suffered the same fate as Calvin and then Davis's god would be a jerk as well, because it seems that we are attaching the god to the man. In other words, there is no grace but a works reconciliation (catholicism and jew).

This then gets us to all the other sins below murder without repentance, because obviously we are leaving out that all have sinned, as being not too important. Obviously many I do not need to repent of, well, because of ignorance or just because these sins don't count a whole lot-little stuff. Because if calvinistic doctrine is right, I will die with a lot of junk not repented of-the heart is wicked and who can know it?, so these other stuffs can't mean much because I will not be able to repent of them all! Many things I do, because I am caught up in my times, the crummy modern let everything go church, and social system (like our good friend Calvin), I don't consider sin (even though the bible seem to think all I do is sin, but then most of it does not count, I guess-this is getting to sound like Nietzsche who wisely, figuring this out, said a culture can not be founded on morality but only aesthetics-the jewish just nails us good). So I suppose as I am maligning another man's character, for example, (murder, god sees the heart it says somewhere, and its dumb men and women {to not be sexist} who judge the outside), watching soft porn, not putting a coin in the meter, getting interest on my CD, etc, is ok- if I repent, or it is not necessary depending on our list. I may not need to repent.

To sum up so far.

1. Christianity is a works righteousness.
2. It is not enough to seek forgiveness by appealing to forgiveness that was prior to your sin, prior to the foundation of the world, the everlasting covenant, but you must repent after you sin.
3. Repentance justifies god (the character of god is dependent upon the man).
4. Only some sins are bad enough for the need of repentance. To be determined at a later date.
5. God only acts when men act-he can not forgive without you going through the whooooosh movement.
6. Jesus is nuts and the Father a rattled old man. The father draws who he will to Jesus, obviously not true, he only draws who repents, and only of the big stuff, and evidently doesn't have time for small stuff, who does nowadays?

I am sure there is more to our works religion, just the above has many implications for those precious modern doctrines where god is in one's image. Well I have to get to boxing.
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Old 01-22-2011, 11:51 PM
 
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Calvin gracelessly murdered a man in cold blood because that man was not in agreement with Calvin's erroneous theology. Calvin was not of God and never repented, and even said he would do it again.
Therefore: Calvin was a monster, and do not be deceived, he is not in heaven, as no unrepentant murderer can inherit eternal life, and Calvin did not even have the "grace" to repent.

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
1Cr 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
1Cr 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
1Cr 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

David's prayer of repentance, and his justification by remorse and repentance:
Quote:
A Prayer for Cleansing To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David, when Nathan the prophet came unto him, after he had gone in to Bath–she'ba.
1 Have mercy upon me, O God,
according to thy loving-kindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions. 2 Wash me thoroughly from mine iniquity,
and cleanse me from my sin.
3 For I acknowledge my transgressions:
and my sin is ever before me.
4
Against thee, thee only, have I sinned,
and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest.
5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity;
and in sin did my mother conceive me.
6
Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts:
and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom.
7 Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean:
wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.
8 Make me to hear joy and gladness;
that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice.
9 Hide thy face from my sins,
and blot out all mine iniquities.
10
Create in me a clean heart, O God;
and renew a right spirit within me.
11
Cast me not away from thy presence;
and take not thy Holy Spirit from me.
12 Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation;
and uphold me with thy free Spirit.
13 Then will I teach transgressors thy ways;
and sinners shall be converted unto thee.
14
Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God,
thou God of my salvation: and my tongue shall sing aloud of thy righteousness.
15 O Lord, open thou my lips;
and my mouth shall show forth thy praise.
16
For thou desirest not sacrifice;
else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.
17
The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit:
a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.
18
Do good in thy good pleasure unto Zion:
build thou the walls of Jerusalem.
19
Then shalt thou be pleased with the sacrifices of righteousness,
with burnt offering and whole burnt offering: then shall they offer bullocks upon thine altar.
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Old 01-23-2011, 09:23 AM
 
Location: Canada
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Quote:
David killed Uriah by his word given to have the man put in front of the battle line, in a war. David was guilty of the blood of iniquity, and said so, in Psalm 51, which is his repentance Psalm.



I agree, but David held the power of life and death Calvin did not.


Quote:

Calvin killed Servetus by having his henchmen burn him to death, after a mock trial -Servetus was even mocked by Calvin.
Calvin admitted he killed Servetus. Calvin had no heart to repent of blood guilt, because he had no heart, "having had his conscience seared as with a hot iron", as those in 1 Tinothy 4:2, had.



Where did you get this info from? A Catholic Church website perhaps

Protestant and Catholic Churches have had this type of war from the beginning, trying to make each other seen in a bad light.

Calvin was not of Geneva and did NOT sit on the council that sentenced Servetus to death. One had to be a Genevite to sit on the council. And it was not a mock trial it lasted many days.

Calvin believed Servetus was worthy of death because of his doctrine and testified to that effect.

Yes Calvin was the one who brought Servetus before the council and said he was worthy of death because of his doctrine, but it was the council that convicted Servetus to a fiery death not Calvin. Calvin at least tried to have Servetus die by some other means then by fire but the councils would not relent and Servetus was burned to death.

So to equate what David did with what Calvin did as the same thing does not hold any water.
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Old 01-23-2011, 07:42 PM
 
Location: Texas
4,346 posts, read 5,576,056 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma View Post
So to equate what David did with what Calvin did as the same thing does not hold any water.
To equate Calvin's life with any kind of Godliness or Godly behavior doesn't hold water either. His letters and the historical record paints a clear picture.

This is my gripe: Because the man goes on and on about the greatness and sovereignty of God and had good intellectual and writing skills it is assumed God was at work in the man.

But the way you treat your fellows reveals everything, it hides nothing.

Yes, some understanding should be given to Calvin for the barbaric culture he was born into, but both Luther and Calvin were barbarians when compared to anything we consider civility, much less compared to Jesus' standard of behavior.
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Old 01-23-2011, 08:52 PM
 
2,981 posts, read 4,314,780 times
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[quote=pneuma;17539392]


I agree, but David held the power of life and death Calvin did not.
Oh yes Calvin did.

Calvin was not of Geneva and did NOT sit on the council...
Calvin was the Mafia boss pulling the strings.

So to equate what David did with what Calvin did as the same thing does not hold any water.
Nope, they are not equal. David lusted for Bathsheba who bathed on the roof to be seen by him.
David committed adultery, and look at the curse of God on his descendants, the death of the son conceived in adultery, and David's humble repentance.

Calvin, however, did not act as a human being in his having Servetus murdered, rather he acted as a demon, driven by a devil, to commit such a blasphemous deed against the name of Christ.

Calvin was a monster.
David was a human.
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Old 01-24-2011, 08:24 AM
 
Location: Canada
6,643 posts, read 4,004,931 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by firstborn888 View Post
To equate Calvin's life with any kind of Godliness or Godly behavior doesn't hold water either. His letters and the historical record paints a clear picture.

This is my gripe: Because the man goes on and on about the greatness and sovereignty of God and had good intellectual and writing skills it is assumed God was at work in the man.

But the way you treat your fellows reveals everything, it hides nothing.

Yes, some understanding should be given to Calvin for the barbaric culture he was born into, but both Luther and Calvin were barbarians when compared to anything we consider civility, much less compared to Jesus' standard of behavior.
I agree, I am not defending what Calvin did, but to consent to a death and give testimony that brought about the death is not the same as actually killing the person. Which is what the OP suggests.
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Old 01-24-2011, 08:27 AM
 
Location: Canada
6,643 posts, read 4,004,931 times
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[quote=yeshuasavedme;17547723]
Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma View Post


I agree, but David held the power of life and death Calvin did not.
Oh yes Calvin did.

Calvin was not of Geneva and did NOT sit on the council...
Calvin was the Mafia boss pulling the strings.

So to equate what David did with what Calvin did as the same thing does not hold any water.
Nope, they are not equal. David lusted for Bathsheba who bathed on the roof to be seen by him.
David committed adultery, and look at the curse of God on his descendants, the death of the son conceived in adultery, and David's humble repentance.

Calvin, however, did not act as a human being in his having Servetus murdered, rather he acted as a demon, driven by a devil, to commit such a blasphemous deed against the name of Christ.
Calvin was a monster.
David was a human.
while you can believe what you like, but historiens do not back you up.
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Old 01-24-2011, 10:08 AM
 
2,981 posts, read 4,314,780 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma View Post
I agree, I am not defending what Calvin did, but to consent to a death and give testimony that brought about the death is not the same as actually killing the person. Which is what the OP suggests.
David did kill Uriah, not by his own hand, but by his own words.
Calvin did murder Servetus, not by his own hand, but by his own words, authority, and power to do so.
Calvin had no excuse before man or God and did not repent, as history records in his own letters.

David had no excuse before man or God and repented, as the Word records, in David's own writings.
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