U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 01-18-2011, 04:43 AM
 
Location: Texas
4,346 posts, read 5,567,579 times
Reputation: 843

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyber Munchkin View Post
You know I don't care what he did that is between him and God.
What if you found out that your pastor was an unrepentant child molester? Would you keep attending his services and listening to his messages?

Now, even beyond that - Public acts are open for public scrutiny. We are NOT talking about Calvin's private sins behind closed doors - they were public and (if for no other reason) are open for critique because of that.

Now, even beyond that - David's sins while serving as king have been made public (you believe by God) for billions to read about over and over again in the best selling book of all time. I really can't understand your zeal for thinking these public figures, revered by millions, can't be discussed in this way.

That said - since I hate gossip, I'm sure your not one I have to worry about in that regard. So what you are demonstrating is a great quality, in it's proper setting.

But to come into a level headed talk about facts of history based on public actions and acting like those who are discussing are some kind of faithless judgemental people is unreasonable IMO.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 01-18-2011, 05:40 AM
 
Location: Somewhere
6,370 posts, read 5,629,243 times
Reputation: 575
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyber Munchkin View Post
7.When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her.
8.Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground.
9.At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first,
until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there.

Yeah, I'm not throwing stones. So I'm good here. I'm calling Calvin a mudererer because that is the record on the man. Again, you showed nothing to prove that Jesus rebuked those men for calling the woman and adulterer.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-18-2011, 05:49 AM
 
Location: On a road heaven bound !
10,290 posts, read 8,041,829 times
Reputation: 17783
Quote:
Originally Posted by trettep View Post
Yeah, I'm not throwing stones. So I'm good here. I'm calling Calvin a mudererer because that is the record on the man. Again, you showed nothing to prove that Jesus rebuked those men for calling the woman and adulterer.
Whatever trettep.... keep twisting and justifying it, we already know you can't see it !!

Done here.... later !!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-18-2011, 06:00 AM
 
Location: Somewhere
6,370 posts, read 5,629,243 times
Reputation: 575
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyber Munchkin View Post
Whatever trettep.... keep twisting and justifying it, we already know you can't see it !!

Done here.... later !!
It isn't twising or justifying it. Calvin killed a man. That is the record. The Bible is full of examples of just men stating the facts:

Jas 5:6 Ye have condemned and killed the just; and he doth not resist you.

1Th 2:15 Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:

Rom 11:3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.

Act 12:1 Now about that time Herod the king stretched forth his hands to vex certain of the church.
Act 12:2 And he killed James the brother of John with the sword.
Act 12:3 And because he saw it pleased the Jews, he proceeded further to take Peter also. (Then were the days of unleavened bread.)

and much more....
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-18-2011, 09:55 AM
 
Location: Southern Minnesota
5,990 posts, read 11,202,798 times
Reputation: 3195
Cyber Munchkin,

I think time has dulled the shock of what Calvin did. If, instead of Calvin in the 1500s, it was Joel Osteen (just using him as an example, nothing against him) last Tuesday burning a man in his congregation at the stake for Servetus' "crime" and justifying it through twisted Scripture, you'd be singing a different tune. You'd probably want Osteen dead (executed by the state), you'd call his church a cult, the media would be RIPPING evangelical Christianity (it would be mentioned in the same breath as radical Islam) and there would be many people leaving Osteen's congregation, if not flat out renouncing their faith in Christ altogether. We certainly wouldn't see people naming colleges "Osteen College" or calling their theology "Osteenism."

I guess time really does heal all wounds.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-18-2011, 10:58 AM
 
Location: Florida
5,965 posts, read 5,569,905 times
Reputation: 1579
Quote:
Originally Posted by yeshuasavedme View Post
Calvin murdered many accused of adultery. He had them tortured, imprisoned, drowned, burned -any and or all of these- at the whims of the Geneva crowd. Read the history.
He was apparently a very austere man. I've never liked him since the first time I ever read about his theology and dirty deeds back when I was about 20 years old. Doesn't mean I wish him ill. Just think his life and works hurt a lot of people. If he truly did what the history books say, I don't believe he ever tasted the grace, love and mercy of God by that time. Same can be said for many people who think they know God. Fortunately, God's grace does not stop when our hearts stop beating!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-18-2011, 10:59 AM
 
Location: 30-40N 90-100W
13,856 posts, read 22,244,909 times
Reputation: 6657
Calvin I think objected to burning him at the stake. I believe he wanted him hung instead. Puritans, who had some Calvinist influences, avoided burning witches as burning was seen as a Catholic practice. They favored execution by hanging instead.

I'm not a fan of Calvin, and this is part of why, but in fairness it's not like he went into the streets of Geneva and started burning people. Execution was accepted by all Christians at that time and heresy was seen as placing one outside the law. If a person rejected the values on which law seemed to be based the person seemed potentially dangerous. Our ideas on "separation of church and state" would have been very much alien to Calvin and to most everyone from that era. Even outside Christendom much of the world lived in societies with "state religions." Even in a more religiously free society like Ming China if you did not perform the rites to the ancestors it would be very difficult, or impossible, for you to become a government official. (Although they didn't kill people for that and some who didn't do it served the government in non-official ways)

Catholics, of which I am one, would have also killed Servetus at that time and I think intended to do so. This is probably what I find almost more troubling with the story of Calvin and Servetus as I heard it. He or his followers allowed him to believed he'd be saved from the Spanish Inquisition in Geneva, which technically he was, but then he was executed anyway. Although maybe that's an unfair or inaccurate reading.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-18-2011, 11:05 AM
 
Location: 30-40N 90-100W
13,856 posts, read 22,244,909 times
Reputation: 6657
Okay looking it up at that time I guess he was fleeing the French not Spanish Inquisition and did not think Geneva was a refuge as such, but was just a place he landed. Also Calvin wanted decapitation not hanging and by the laws of that era it sounds like banishing Servetus would have been more proper.

Still my points were mostly

Calvin was a pretty harsh dude willing to execute, but

It's not like Calvin personally had Servetus killed. He played a role in the state of Geneva killing him, but it was not him alone who did it all.

I'll link to some sources though and maybe read them closer when I'm more rested.

http://books.google.com/books?id=MlP...page&q&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=mSA...rvetus&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=vwD...rvetus&f=false

Last edited by Thomas R.; 01-18-2011 at 11:13 AM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-18-2011, 11:26 AM
 
Location: Southern Minnesota
5,990 posts, read 11,202,798 times
Reputation: 3195
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas R. View Post
Calvin I think objected to burning him at the stake. I believe he wanted him hung instead. Puritans, who had some Calvinist influences, avoided burning witches as burning was seen as a Catholic practice. They favored execution by hanging instead.
How kind of them.

Quote:
I'm not a fan of Calvin, and this is part of why, but in fairness it's not like he went into the streets of Geneva and started burning people. Execution was accepted by all Christians at that time and heresy was seen as placing one outside the law.
The Quakers, Anabaptists and Mennonites never accepted execution, as far as I know, because it was a form of violence. Many individual Christians opposed execution during that time, even if their churches didn't. Also, the early church (I know this was not at Calvin's time) was against capital punishment.

Quote:
If a person rejected the values on which law seemed to be based the person seemed potentially dangerous. Our ideas on "separation of church and state" would have been very much alien to Calvin and to most everyone from that era. Even outside Christendom much of the world lived in societies with "state religions." Even in a more religiously free society like Ming China if you did not perform the rites to the ancestors it would be very difficult, or impossible, for you to become a government official. (Although they didn't kill people for that and some who didn't do it served the government in non-official ways)

Catholics, of which I am one, would have also killed Servetus at that time and I think intended to do so. This is probably what I find almost more troubling with the story of Calvin and Servetus as I heard it. He or his followers allowed him to believed he'd be saved from the Spanish Inquisition in Geneva, which technically he was, but then he was executed anyway. Although maybe that's an unfair or inaccurate reading.
I know the times Calvin lived in made his act socially acceptable. That still doesn't make it right. Christians are called to a higher standard, not just to go along with what society finds acceptable.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-18-2011, 11:35 AM
 
2,981 posts, read 4,305,755 times
Reputation: 208
Quote:
Originally Posted by kazoopilot View Post


I know the times Calvin lived in made his act socially acceptable. That still doesn't make it right. Christians are called to a higher standard, not just to go along with what society finds acceptable.
You are correct. The Standard of Jesus, carrying His banner, walking in His love towards our fellow man is what Christians are called to.
Every act and word Calvin wrote is a rebellion against the LORD-ship of Jesus Christ. Calvin was not obedient to Jesus Christ, ever. If I was living in Calvin's Geneva, my life would have been forfeit just for being a born again in Christ Believer who walked in obedience to Christ.
Many fled Geneva to escape the persecution of Calvin's henchmen, but many were killed, imprisoned, or tortured, just for their faith in Christ, or for not believing in Calvin or his evil ways.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2018, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top