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Old 01-18-2011, 11:44 AM
 
2,981 posts, read 4,308,478 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas R. View Post

It's not like Calvin personally had Servetus killed. He played a role in the state of Geneva killing him, but it was not him alone who did it all.
Calvin was the "Mafia boss", and his henchmen did the "hits", at his direction.
Quote:
MURDERER John Calvin Burned Michael Servetus At The Stake
"Calvin had him [Servetus] arrested as a heretic. Convicted and burned to death."(9)
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Old 01-18-2011, 01:18 PM
 
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You know the whole idea of Calvin claiming another person who disagreed with him to be an heretic and agreeing with that person being burned alive is altogether too great an example of the carnal violence inherent in the Church, which has been there for so very long, to be overlooked or to pass him off as a single bad apple.

The catholic church just as well as early protestants were all guilty of murder and unspeakable violence in the name of God against supposed enemies of the church and or Gospel, whomever they deem to be heretics.

Paul spoke of the nation of Israel, his own people, who were made enemies of the gospel for the sake of the whole world(Rom 11). Was Paul saying they were heretics who deserved to be tortured and murdered? Was Paul teaching that whoever taught a different gospel than the one he taught should be tortured and burned alive or beheaded or hung or murder in any fashion?

When did the practice of Christians torturing and killing others as heretics in the name of God begin, and why? Is that really what most Christians believe to be the true spirit of the gospel of Christ?

I believe these to be very important questions, ones which shed light on the false teachings and practices of the church since the times of the apostles.

Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 01-18-2011 at 02:23 PM..
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Old 01-18-2011, 02:06 PM
 
Location: Southern Minnesota
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I can't speak for "most Christians," but I certainly do not think torturing and murdering ANYONE to be in the true Spirit and Gospel of Christ. I've yet to meet a Christian who supported torturing and/or murdering "heretics."
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Old 01-18-2011, 02:25 PM
 
Location: missouri
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Calvin did not murder Servetus. He wasn't even a citizen of Geneva (he was French, he had to leave because of the catholics-they wanted to burn him, Luther was only saved because of a prince who wanted out from under the pope) so he only had influence, not say so. Geneva was not a rubber stamp either for Calvin and went against him as well on issues. Calvin actually lent Servetus books while he was in prison so he could prepare for his trial.

Calvin is not the father of TULIP. That was set up in a later synod (Dort). If one reads Calvin, and obviously no one does, one will find that Dort, as a short version of Calvinist doctrine is not strictly in line with Calvin's theology. Both Calvin and Luther knew of man's "precious modern" free will. The complexity for non sheep is to function with this theology in the paradox. Because few read then, the churches constructed these statements so that pew sitters could memorize doctrine and such in easy formats.

Calvin was not a cold blooded whatever. He was helping to institute some of the first social aid programs and such in Geneva, as opposed to catholic wealth consolidation at Rome.

If god gave the sword to governments to rule in this age (I guess this lets the Jews off in their age), then the governing group at Geneva had the right to execute Servetus as he violated the law there in his pushing or advocating the disbelief in the trinity-punishable with death there-he may have wanted to hawk his wares in some other local.

Most modern morons think they are at the pinnacle of ethics and morality, well, and knowledge too. As such they attempt to run their ethics back into the past to judge that place and time. This is moronic because the past did not view reality as we do, nor even have the social structures that we have, nor were these past cultures able to avail themselves to thought that hadn't even arrived yet.

I like Calvin and Luther-one finally gets some serious thought (who of you out in data land has read their works?) and is set free from priests and such (if they avail themselves to it) and one is not trapped in that goofy catholicism, legalistic Jew thought, liberal protestant mumbo jumbo.

As far as the fall out from their theological work-I don't care, I don't care about Servetus (he is just an occasion for those that oppose calvinist protestant thought-I am sure not too many shed actual tears over him-this kind of dirt can be dug up on everyone), or any of it-its the thought that counts. All these ideas including our own will all have consequences and several will die, get depressed, angry, etc from them, so what? In the future, the consequences of all are noble and self righteousness work will be added up and it will be found to be just as bad as theirs.
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Old 01-18-2011, 02:36 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,203,323 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kazoopilot View Post
I can't speak for "most Christians," but I certainly do not think torturing and murdering ANYONE to be in the true Spirit and Gospel of Christ. I've yet to meet a Christian who supported torturing and/or murdering "heretics."
Well i have met my fare share, and there are a few on TV, who openly support the killing and illegal imprisonment of Muslims and their being "interrogated".

Moderator cut: deleted/off topic

Last edited by june 7th; 01-18-2011 at 03:16 PM..
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Old 01-18-2011, 03:02 PM
 
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No love for Calvin?...LOL

I think many of us forget that the Protestant Reformation, and perhaps even western civilization as we know it, and America in particular, are all strongly indebted to John Calvin. Many of our best and brightest institutions are founded upon his principals of republican liberty and self-government. Here is a link that gives some history on Calvin and his contributions that helped shape American culture:

Home Grown the Simple Way: Calvinism in American History (http://homegrownthesimpleway.blogspot.com/2010/04/calvinism-in-american-history.html - broken link)

Calvin truly had a gifted mind, whether we agree with his systematic theology or not. Calvin wrote the Institutes of the Christian Religion at the young age of 26. That book has often been referred to as "one of the ten books that shook the world". A monumental work that puts spiritual concepts into a systematic order.

Here it is in PDF format: Well I guess the link will not link.... So, here it is on-line:

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/calvin/institutes.toc.html

Enjoy...
(http://www.ntslibrary.com/PDF%20 - broken link)

Last edited by AlabamaStorm; 01-18-2011 at 03:14 PM.. Reason: link reformated
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Old 01-18-2011, 03:03 PM
 
Location: Southern Minnesota
5,990 posts, read 11,209,228 times
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I knew someone would come in here to defend Calvin. I don't know how much more explicit his actions have to be - he had an innocent person executed. There was never any proof that Servetus did not believe in the Trinity, only that his views on that subject differed from those of Calvin and Luther.

God did not give governments the right to kill people for heresy. As for Romans 13, I don't think it refers to capital punishment. In the first century, the sword was not a common method of execution. If governments can execute anyone, it is only for the crime of murder (Genesis 9). Even then, I think the death penalty is wrong in all cases, but that's beside the point.

Allen, your post smacks of Talibanesque religious extremism - "kill the infidels." I find Calvin's actions toward Servetus to be reprehensible. You may not care about Servetus, but God does, seeing as how God made him in His image. But what do I know? I'm just a "modern moron."
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Old 01-18-2011, 03:09 PM
 
Location: Southern Minnesota
5,990 posts, read 11,209,228 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlabamaStorm View Post
No love for Calvin?...LOL

I think many of us forget that the Protestant Reformation, and perhaps even western civilization as we know it, and America in particular, are all strongly indebted to John Calvin. Many of our best and brightest institutions are founded upon his principals of republican liberty and self-government. Here is a link that gives some history on Calvin and his contributions that helped shape American culture:

Home Grown the Simple Way: Calvinism in American History (http://homegrownthesimpleway.blogspot.com/2010/04/calvinism-in-american-history.html - broken link)

Calvin truly had a gifted mind, whether we agree with his systematic theology or not. Calvin wrote the Institutes of the Christian Religion at the young age of 26. That book has often been referred to as "one of the ten books that shook the world". A monumental work that puts spiritual concepts into a systematic order.

Here it is in PDF format:

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=7&sqi=2&ved=0CD4QFjAG&url=h ttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.ntslibrary.com%2FPDF%2520Books%2FC alvin%2520Institutes%2520of%2520Christian%2520Reli gion.pdf&rct=j&q=calvin%20institutes%2010%20books% 20that%20shook%20the%20world&ei=1Ag2TcGSOcb3gAfK09 iECw&usg=AFQjCNEL-h1prg0sEccmYag3COTqgG5m0w&cad=rja (http://www.ntslibrary.com/PDF%20 - broken link)

Enjoy,.....
America is based on freedom of religion, while John Calvin opposed it with his actions of executing "heretics," which would be unconstitutional in America. I don't care whether Calvin had a sharp mind, his actions showed him to be morally dull.

"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen (Muslims); and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan (Muslim) nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries." - President John Adams
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Old 01-18-2011, 03:12 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,203,323 times
Reputation: 892
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlabamaStorm View Post
No love for Calvin?...LOL

I think many of us forget that the Protestant Reformation, and perhaps even western civilization as we know it, and America in particular, are all strongly indebted to John Calvin. Many of our best and brightest institutions are founded upon his principals of republican liberty and self-government. Here is a link that gives some history on Calvin and his contributions that helped shape American culture:

Home Grown the Simple Way: Calvinism in American History (http://homegrownthesimpleway.blogspot.com/2010/04/calvinism-in-american-history.html - broken link)

Calvin truly had a gifted mind, whether we agree with his systematic theology or not. Calvin wrote the Institutes of the Christian Religion at the young age of 26. That book has often been referred to as "one of the ten books that shook the world". A monumental work that puts spiritual concepts into a systematic order.

Here it is in PDF format:

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=7&sqi=2&ved=0CD4QFjAG&url=h ttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.ntslibrary.com%2FPDF%2520Books%2FC alvin%2520Institutes%2520of%2520Christian%2520Reli gion.pdf&rct=j&q=calvin%20institutes%2010%20books% 20that%20shook%20the%20world&ei=1Ag2TcGSOcb3gAfK09 iECw&usg=AFQjCNEL-h1prg0sEccmYag3COTqgG5m0w&cad=rja (http://www.ntslibrary.com/PDF%20 - broken link)

Enjoy,.....
I am not saying that Calvin was not a great man, I just don't think he was spiritually reformed as much as much as he may have been religiously reformed.

Systems of interpretation and political orientation are all good, but they really don't amount to a hill of beans in the eyes of God compared to how we treat one another, and the effects we have on the lives of people in the world around us.

Calvin was certainly a great man, but he was also a very violent man.



List of most evil crimes
Quote:
Crimes against humanity: 1531 John Calvin 1000s of religious nonconformists are killed and witches burned after John Calvin (1509-1564) turns Geneva into religious police state.

Murder : (1553) That John Calvin, the "Protestant Pope" of Geneva did order Michael Servetus, the Spanish physician, burned at the stake for heresy. Servetus had opposed Trinitarianism and infant baptism.

Murder: (1531) Jacques Gruet Calvin orders beheading of Jacques Gruet for blasphemy.

Murder: (1531) Calvin urges burning of witches.

From : 25 Most Evil People of the 16th Century CE | John Calvin
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Old 01-18-2011, 03:51 PM
 
2,526 posts, read 2,315,071 times
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I'm not defending the sins of John Calvin...

I'm merely recognizing that the Protestant Reformation, including a lot of western civilization is strongly indebted to his way of thinking and interpreting the bible.

Now, that's not to say that our US Constitution is founded upon the concept of Calvinism or a Christian Theocracy, it's not. However many of those that participated in the writing of that document were greatly influenced by Calvin's theology and thinking:

John Calvin and the American Founding

The Dawn Treader: Calvinism And Its Influence On The U.S. Constitution

http://www.adherents.com/largecom/fam_calvin.html

Anyway, love or hate Calvin....we're indebted to much of his biblical thinking.
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