U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 01-18-2011, 05:03 PM
 
Location: missouri
1,179 posts, read 1,180,127 times
Reputation: 151

Advertisements

It is as you say of your self, I will not argue. Accusing me of some relation to being taliban is the ol' "I can't address the post point by point trick" so I will just label. And after all the unending social rhetoric about toning down discourse and having brotherly love!

God can care, that is his job-he supposedly knows everyone's name. There have been over 10 billion people and it is hard for me to care about each one-those become abstract and to say you care and love them all is a lie, because true love can not be abstract, to say you care is a lie; if you did care, the Sudan would kill you or drive you nuts. Servetus was over 500 years ago. Do you care about all the others? Why this guy? He your great, great, grandpa? I have been listening to this argument for a long time and it is not about caring-how many of you have started a scholarship in his name, do you throw wreaths into the sea an weep, or what? The truth is no one cares what god thinks; no one searches after his thoughts (like old america's manifest destiny movement), they want to institute their own, and god is merely the occasion to give one's thoughts authority; and there is no belief in him anyway (belief is wrapped up around your little per group, church, or whatever-as god made man in his image, man makes god in man's image). What matters, as always, is power. Servetus is just a cog in the machine to get some doctrine on top; it is always a struggle of ideas with intent to control-there is no love here, just power. Just as your labeling me taliban like is to remove me from threatening your power.

What happens here is that ones mixes present ethical constructs peculiar to the west, philosophically developed etc. One then takes some stuff from the bible (that really mixes with one's life view or how one wishes the world was-in one's image), turn god into a modern liberal (not the political party but an enlightened modern), or at least an elected official, stir it, and then speak for god in judging the past.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 01-18-2011, 05:12 PM
 
2,526 posts, read 2,320,862 times
Reputation: 327
Quote:
Originally Posted by kazoopilot View Post
America is based on freedom of religion, while John Calvin opposed it with his actions of executing "heretics," which would be unconstitutional in America. I don't care whether Calvin had a sharp mind, his actions showed him to be morally dull.

"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen (Muslims); and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan (Muslim) nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries." - President John Adams
I take it you don't like Calvin...LOL

What are your thoughts concerning King David instructing his son Solomon's revenge on Shimei (1 Ki 2:8-9)?

Do David and Solomon also fall into your category of "sharp mind but morally dull"?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-18-2011, 05:37 PM
 
2,981 posts, read 4,321,088 times
Reputation: 208
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlabamaStorm View Post

Do David and Solomon also fall into your category of "sharp mind but morally dull"?
Why are you so fervently trying to justify Calvin for unrepentant murder?
Calvin was supposed to be a servant of Jesus Christ, in the age of the Gospel, under the authority of the commands of Jesus Christ. He was not called to be conquering king of men, ruling by the sword for religious enslavement of the masses, but was supposed to be set up as a minister of the Gospel in the Church of Jesus Christ.
Calvin was a "Mafia" leader, and his organization was a thugocracy, ruling simple minds and rebel minds by the power of the sword, and he was not of God.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-18-2011, 05:42 PM
 
Location: East Coast
30,348 posts, read 20,083,905 times
Reputation: 2114
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlabamaStorm View Post
I take it you don't like Calvin...LOL

What are your thoughts concerning King David instructing his son Solomon's revenge on Shimei (1 Ki 2:8-9)?

Do David and Solomon also fall into your category of "sharp mind but morally dull"?
Hey Alabama what i find concerning is the putting to death of someone who doesn't agree with you. You might laugh, but the threats of what's to come for those who don't agree with the faith of the church, is the same murderous spirit, that Calvin was of.

Obviously David believed in an eye for an eye , towards his enemies, i don't recall him killing someone because of how they believed.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-18-2011, 05:48 PM
 
Location: missouri
1,179 posts, read 1,180,127 times
Reputation: 151
Yeah, David killed to get a girl, much more ethical-well, romantic.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-18-2011, 06:04 PM
 
Location: Texas
4,346 posts, read 5,582,338 times
Reputation: 843
Quote:
Originally Posted by kazoopilot View Post
I know the times Calvin lived in made his act socially acceptable. That still doesn't make it right. Christians are called to a higher standard, not just to go along with what society finds acceptable.
Exactly.

I have no big gripe except when people can't just admit that they (Calvin/Luther) were barbaric cruel men from a barbaric cruel time. To hold them up as representing the Spirit of Christ in any way shape or form is absolutely absurd.

Just because they revolted against the hypocrisy and corruption in the RCC and claimed to have new improved doctrine does not affiliate them with the actual Spirit of Christ.

Come on people. Arresting/torturing/killing heretics??? Are you kidding me???

(Their isn't enough bandwidth on the entire internet to transmit the infinite number of rolling eyes I wish to place right here).
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-18-2011, 06:32 PM
 
2,981 posts, read 4,321,088 times
Reputation: 208
Quote:
Originally Posted by allen antrim View Post
Yeah, David killed to get a girl, much more ethical-well, romantic.
David repented of his sin of having his soldier, Uriah, placed on the front lines of battle to be killed, so as to hide from Uriah that his wife had been unfaithful and had conceived, and the LORD placed a curse on David's "house" -descendants- in that the sword would never depart from them; and a further curse in that what he did in his sin would be multiplied back, and his own wives [ishyah is wife, and they were ishyah's] would be molested in the sight of all Israel.
So the curse was suffered by David and his descendants, in this world, but David repented and was a man after God's own heart and has eternity with the LORD.
Calvin, OTOH, was not a man after God's own heart, never repented, and said that he would do it again. I do not believe that Calvin was ever saved, nor did he ever have the Holy Spirit, as David did, and from what I have read, I do not believe that Calvin even believed that he was one of the "elect" defined by the doctrine he invented, of predestination by a monster god, after all. That is my opinion, and I am stuck with it.

David knew he was guilty, and prayed this prayer or repentance:

Quote:
Psalm 51

1Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions.
2Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin.
3For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me.
4Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest.
5Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
6Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom.
7Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.
8Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice.
9Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities.
10Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.
11Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.
12Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.
13Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee.
14Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, thou God of my salvation: and my tongue shall sing aloud of thy righteousness.
15O Lord, open thou my lips; and my mouth shall shew forth thy praise.
16For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.
17The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.
18Do good in thy good pleasure unto Zion: build thou the walls of Jerusalem.
19Then shalt thou be pleased with the sacrifices of righteousness, with burnt offering and whole burnt offering: then shall they offer bullocks upon thine altar.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-18-2011, 06:33 PM
 
2,526 posts, read 2,320,862 times
Reputation: 327
Quote:
Originally Posted by yeshuasavedme View Post
Why are you so fervently trying to justify Calvin for unrepentant murder?
Calvin was supposed to be a servant of Jesus Christ, in the age of the Gospel, under the authority of the commands of Jesus Christ. He was not called to be conquering king of men, ruling by the sword for religious enslavement of the masses, but was supposed to be set up as a minister of the Gospel in the Church of Jesus Christ.
Calvin was a "Mafia" leader, and his organization was a thugocracy, ruling simple minds and rebel minds by the power of the sword, and he was not of God.
I'm not trying to justify Calvin's actions. Where did you get that idea? I think he was wrong to testify against Servetus and seek his death penalty.

I suppose what I'm trying to point out is that we are so often quick to condemn our enemies and forgive our friends. Why is that?

If we're going to sit in judgment and condemn a man for murder, the least we can do is hear all the facts surrounding the case. Is it too much to hear from the defense? So far, I think we've only heard from the prosecutors...

Here are two articles that consider the events that lead to the killing of Servetus:

Calvin vs. Servetus, by J. Steven Wilkins

Banner of Truth Trust General Articles
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-18-2011, 06:39 PM
 
2,981 posts, read 4,321,088 times
Reputation: 208
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlabamaStorm View Post
I'm not trying to justify Calvin's actions. Where did you get that idea? I think he was wrong to testify against Servetus and seek his death penalty.

I suppose what I'm trying to point out is that we are so often quick to condemn our enemies and forgive our friends. Why is that?

If we're going to sit in judgment and condemn a man for murder, the least we can do is hear all the facts surrounding the case. Is it too much to hear from the defense? So far, I think we've only heard from the prosecutors...

Here are two articles that consider the events that lead to the killing of Servetus:
I long ago read the history of Calvin, and the indictments of Calvin taken from the writings of the times, themselves, and Calvin's own words from his own letters; and some of what I long ago read was taken from the public records of Geneva. There is enough evidence to prove that Calvin knew not the LORD Jesus Christ, and was a tyrant who used the sword to subject men to his own twisted sick mind's ideas of what utopia was supposed to be.

In America, the Congregationalists of Salem were Calvin's fruit, when they behaved in the same manner, by the same spirit, and put innocent people to death for crimes against "god".
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-18-2011, 06:49 PM
 
2,526 posts, read 2,320,862 times
Reputation: 327
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
Hey Alabama what i find concerning is the putting to death of someone who doesn't agree with you. You might laugh, but the threats of what's to come for those who don't agree with the faith of the church, is the same murderous spirit, that Calvin was of.

Obviously David believed in an eye for an eye , towards his enemies, i don't recall him killing someone because of how they believed.
I'm not laughing at Calvin's sin of murder (if it's so), but rather the hypocrisy of what I see here in this thread. The one's cursing Calvin are kind of like Shimei cursing David. That's what I find somewhat ironic (in a humorous way I suppose). The Lord will judge both.

1Ki 2:8 And, behold, thou hast with thee Shimei the son of Gera, a Benjamite of Bahurim, which cursed me with a grievous curse in the day when I went to Mahanaim: but he came down to meet me at Jordan, and I sware to him by the LORD , saying, I will not put thee to death with the sword.
1Ki 2:9 Now therefore hold him not guiltless: for thou art a wise man, and knowest what thou oughtest to do unto him; but his hoar head bring thou down to the grave with blood.

Last edited by AlabamaStorm; 01-18-2011 at 07:43 PM.. Reason: added text
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2018, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top