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Old 01-19-2011, 12:21 AM
 
Location: missouri
1,179 posts, read 1,178,545 times
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Generosity? That means the hammer is coming, but with tact!

I am looking for nothing from the forum directly and I am not too interested in giving anything out. I am selfish, you might say, and use the forum for my own reasons. I usually intrude on a thread that has something I am after in my own thinking (some I see as a place for a joke); even if I don't know what it is when I start. After 60 years I trust no one else's thinking in theology as I have ran into so few christians who know any. I am not passionate about his theology-I said it was the best at the time. I am passionate about my own (you can never have another's thought directly, you always filter it into yourself). It is pretty much accepted in some of the social sciences (systems theory, cybernetics, etc) today that no one can convince another of something-each must convince oneself. Guns make people come in line to some extent, burning them (and whose religion has not killed some heretics-on an american indian thread I got them in a tizzy-they thought christianity in general did them a lot of damage, I think even those peaceful love everybody christians liked the land here, but then they was just injuns), political correctness, guilt, law, religious cultus, etc.

I imagine Calvin is not esteemed today, primarily because of his doctrine (Servetus is just where one can place disdain for the doctrine, that one has in consciousness, most are unreflective to a great extent about theology it seems to me, Servetus is like a slogan, a rally point, whatever) especially where it concerns the will-its always about power. I have presented his doctrines and I used TULIP for that as it simplifies the presentation (I was not trying to convince but to inform). The response is usually out right hostility (even in churches that were based on calvinistic doctrines when they started), even from old ladies-people love their world to be one of chance from outside (getting rid of god) and one of control from inside (becoming the woman Eve). Copies of this statement have bible references and such-no one has argued this biblically or theologically during a presentation, but always with opinion, and opinions are like the anus, as it goes. Man creates god in his own image, that is the idol-even the bible says this; except back in that day he made a real carving instead of a mental one-his advantage was he could make coffee with the shavings. God is supposed to be at the beck and call of man, the free will stuff (I call that bucket salvation, ie, god does not need to be present for the event, and it is gnostic). Election, as Jimmy Swaggert once said, is from hell, even though those whores of his were not. This doctrine, that god does as he will, is what is hated, ie, god is hated: he, she, it, whatever, has to be on a leash.

The core of the theology is correct in my view. The second volume of the Institutes are socially out dated. Stuff in the biblical commentaries are dated. He wrote at an historical time just as we do. All theology is error just as all belief. The goal is to get close, god has to accept the work, and as little children, he accepts that work if he wishes and calls it orthodox even when it can never be. How can any mind, idea, etc, know god? Even the bible says it can not. Its called grace (and how is one to determine if one is close? and accepted?).

If calvinism begins to threaten the church in a substantial way, you will hear more of Calvin's war crimes. So never fear, your desires will come true depending on these developments.

The "crime", the "atrocity", well, that was some time ago, and there have been a lot of atrocities over the dam and much more current ones to focus on and as theology is no longer needed to a great extent but rather cheer leading, money laundering, feel goodness, little stories, etc, and now its need is to be a social savior, the church has become liberal as it is called (you see, the conservative church was calvinistic, and immediately after the reformation the free will stuff began immediately to re-infect it. So Calvin actually is a minor figure of importance to the modern church and its doctrines; the last big denomination to give up this ghost was the S. Baptists and they saw no need to be calvinistic because they thought it interfered with missions-you know the logic of it all, no free will, what is the point. This happened at a convention early in the 1900s I believe; which makes it funny when today they fight over liberal and conservative when both sides are basically liberal; the fundys are not conservatives as most follow free will, I believe {the inerrant scripture dialog is an attempt by free will to believe what it can trust to be absolutely true, erasing the need for faith-but this dialog has been raised as an orthodoxy test}), theology is less an issue so Calvin is less a figure. The reason this has come up, I imagine is that there is some resurgence of his doctrine, or simulations of it-it will be minor I assure you, as the church will be sure to return to the idea that man controls what god does, just as the Jews turned to every imaginable idol so goes the church. A catholic bishop said in twenty years there would no longer be a protestant church, they would be catholics, and I think that was 20 years ago. Now if protestants will buy the pope they are in.

I won't give you any thing to rewrite the record, what could I say? Who am I? Servetus was executed and that is that. Murdered? You have to run your views back, but then they should be allowed to run theirs forward into your life; read the institutes and see how you measure up to their views; after all, why are yours correct? You will believe as your bias, education, beliefs, etc lead you. No man leads as autonomous, himself; that is a myth.

Calvin did not murder this man in any direct way. It sounds here as if he grabbed the guy and slit his neck. They had it a crime to teach against the trinity, punished by death-if I remember right. He violated the law and the council at Geneva sentenced him. There were lots of laws then, everywhere in fact that today we think are wrong, but it was their law not ours. In the future many of our laws will be viewed as wrong. And a lot of our heros will be bad.
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Old 01-19-2011, 05:32 AM
 
Location: Texas
4,346 posts, read 5,576,792 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by allen antrim View Post
Calvin never repented? Well who knows, Moderator cut: attacking
We alway excuse David, but because of blood that he spilled, despite repentance, he could not build the temple. The prophets; some of them killed heretics, what would we do with Moses? Fire from heaven, and the Assyrian that slaughtered Jews because of heresy and was god's right hand? And all those priests of idols that were exterminated, etc?

If what a man does, and especially according to modern ideas, makes doctrine error, well then, the Jews doctrine is error, Catholicism is error (anyone read book of martyrs?), free will doctrine is error,
the whole US is error, and, well, it all actually is.
No one here (that I recall) is calling Calvin's theology into question per-se'.

I would say that these types of incidents show that correct/incorrect doctrine has nothing to do with the Spirit of Christ.

For the record - I am an equal opportunity fruit assessor. This is a no brainer. You don't do to dogs what Luther/Calvin/the RCC did to people.

Yes - people use this to attack doctrine. Yet it really should have nothing to do with doctrine. How you treat fellow creatures is the lone assessor of your manifest Godliness/goodness of character.

Period.

AISI.

So again - can we just acknowledge that these men were barbarians born of a barbaric culture?

And acknowledge that we may have been them given the state of humanity at the time?

I don't need Calvin to explain to me what the bible says. So why is he honored? There is no justification for this at all. IF he actually became enlightened and taught us how he overcame his barbaric ways then - maybe I could learn something from him.

Se what I am saying?
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Old 01-19-2011, 10:42 AM
 
Location: missouri
1,179 posts, read 1,178,545 times
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I responded to some questions and attempted to get at some deeper rooted things from my point of view. Human beings are like that-the surface is the lie, and beneath, they are hawking something and more complex.

Barbaric they were. Thank god we are nothing like them (reminds me of a bible incident in which two guys approached god). As our modern history, full of love and brotherly affection has revealed, we have arrived at the pinnacle of human development (we are so advanced even the commies kill their heretics), no wonder we have become history's judges.

I am glad some have come to the point where only each need their own self to know what the bible says. Evidently there are aliens that are removed from the social system and have no need for others. I bow to their genius and autonomous mental abilities-but I suspect they are using someone else's thought.
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Old 01-20-2011, 03:23 AM
 
Location: Texas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by allen antrim View Post
I responded to some questions and attempted to get at some deeper rooted things from my point of view.
Thank you - I read much of what you wrote and you make some good points.
Quote:
Originally Posted by allen antrim View Post

Human beings are like that-the surface is the lie,
Sometimes what you see is what you get though, and so there is hope.
Quote:
Originally Posted by allen antrim View Post
and beneath, they are hawking something and more complex.
Complex. Complex is always a problem. Systematic theology really tends to complicate things.

"Love works no ill to his neighbor - therefore love is the fulfilling of the law" is simple. All the rest is smoke screens - just the ego trying to protect itself from exposure (the complex beneath you spoke of).
Quote:
Originally Posted by allen antrim View Post
Barbaric they were. Thank god we are nothing like them (reminds me of a bible incident in which two guys approached god). As our modern history, full of love and brotherly affection has revealed, we have arrived at the pinnacle of human development (we are so advanced even the commies kill their heretics), no wonder we have become history's judges.
Recognizing our weakness is important. Humility is important. I already said something to the effect that "we could have been them" (I think it was on this thread). Again, fruit is a simple simple thing to judge. If you don't want something being done to you - don't do it to someone else. It's not rocket science.

I can admit that I'm a self-serving bastard much of the time. It's easy to judge. I think it's fair to call a spade a spade within and without both now and throughout what we know of history. Do you see any problem with doing that?
Quote:
Originally Posted by allen antrim View Post
I am glad some have come to the point where only each need their own self to know what the bible says.
In response to this apparent sarcasm I won't quote "You have no need that any man teach you" as a rebuttal because obviously it doesn't mean "no man ever need teach you anything". I just personally don't need Calvin (or want Calvin).

Religious theological studies are only mildly interesting to me anymore, now seen as a portrait of man's ideas about God more than anything else. As you so eloquently stated earlier - only an individual can convince themselves that something is true, preordained response mechanisms and supernatural intervention aside (potter's clay and such).
Quote:
Originally Posted by allen antrim View Post
Evidently there are aliens that are removed from the social system and have no need for others.
If I'm reading this right this is a gross over reaction to me stating I don't need Calvin to teach me what the bible says. I can read, and have studied Hebrew and Greek as well. I have read some of Calvin's work and see how he came to his conclusions. I came to many of the same conclusions about bible doctrine before reading him. What's the big deal? Plus - he's ugly. And mean.
Quote:
Originally Posted by allen antrim View Post
I bow to their genius and autonomous mental abilities-but I suspect they are using someone else's thought.
As far as genius, Calvin was obviously very intelligent but in a cold analytical legalistic sort of way (which has it's place but absent empathy is dangerous).

Having failed to produce empathy for human suffering - all his grandiose theological ideas are rendered meaningless. Clanging brass.

Quote:
Originally Posted by allen antrim View Post
but I suspect they are using someone else's thought.
I take your point that thought is an evolution, like music, throughout history. I don't know why some thoughts bounce off me and some absorb. I just care about people and animals. A lot. What am I a product of, in your view?
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Old 01-20-2011, 04:22 AM
 
Location: US
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Originally Posted by trettep View Post
I was doing some research on John Calvin and came across some information that he killed a man. Isn't John Calvin the father of the fundamental movement?

I'm curious as to what "churches" subscribe to the views of Calvin.
He started the Presbyterian and latter it gave birth to the American Reformed Church and The United Church Of Christ...But, what is your point?...If you are going to say that since he killed a man that whatever he has said is null and void then that is wrong...If you research any of the great men of Faith in history you will find flaws and that is because we are all human...even Paul said about himself that the things that he hates to do according to his inner man of God, he keeps on doing and that he things that he wants to do he does not do...what will become of a wretch as he...thank God for Jesus Christ...so, it is not longer i who sin but rather sin living in me....And it is the same with Calvin, Luther, Augustine, etc....And if you are talking about the man he killed being Servetus (if memory serves to his name) He was killed by the King Of Spain however it was on the encouragement of Calvin and the reason was for Heresy...Research further...
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Old 01-20-2011, 07:24 AM
 
Location: Somewhere
6,370 posts, read 5,639,200 times
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Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
He started the Presbyterian and latter it gave birth to the American Reformed Church and The United Church Of Christ...But, what is your point?...If you are going to say that since he killed a man that whatever he has said is null and void then that is wrong...If you research any of the great men of Faith in history you will find flaws and that is because we are all human...even Paul said about himself that the things that he hates to do according to his inner man of God, he keeps on doing and that he things that he wants to do he does not do...what will become of a wretch as he...thank God for Jesus Christ...so, it is not longer i who sin but rather sin living in me....And it is the same with Calvin, Luther, Augustine, etc....And if you are talking about the man he killed being Servetus (if memory serves to his name) He was killed by the King Of Spain however it was on the encouragement of Calvin and the reason was for Heresy...Research further...
I'm saying that I didn't know he did such a thing. Murder is contrary to the Spirit of God. If we abide in scripture then we don't go around acting like Saul which is what this historical record indicates about Calvin. So I didn't say that whatever Calvin said is null and void. Because Calvin probably said that God is GOOD and I believe that. If anything I'm saying Judge the Spirits to see whether they be of God or not.

From what I have researched already it was Calvin that turned Servetus over to the authorities knowing full well they would set to kill Servetus. That is the same as killing him.

Calvin is recorded to have said this about Servetus:

Servetus has just sent me a long volume of his ravings. If I consent he will come here, but I will not give my word for if he comes here, if my authority is worth anything, I will never permit him to depart alive ("Si venerit, modo valeat mea autoritas, vivum exire nunquam patiar")

And Calvin wrote a week after Servetus arrest:

...after he [Servetus] had been recognized, I thought he should be detained. My friend Nicolas summoned him on a capital charge, offering himself as a security according to the lex talionis. On the following day he adduced against him forty written charges. He at first sought to evade them. Accordingly we were summoned. He impudently reviled me, just as if he regarded me as obnoxious to him. I answered him as he deserved... of the manís effrontery I will say nothing; but such was his madness that he did not hesitate to say that devils possessed divinity; yea, that many gods were in individual devils, inasmuch as a deity had been substantially communicated to those equally with wood and stone. I hope that sentence of death will at least be passed on him; but I desired that the severity of the punishment be mitigated.

Michael Servetus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Old 01-20-2011, 08:06 PM
 
Location: missouri
1,179 posts, read 1,178,545 times
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To 888

There is always hope, but after 60 years I don't expect any kind of hope turning into something positive. The world is black with a few bright spots from time to time. (I lived in Spain awhile and found that pleasurable as what ever happened there was not my concern and news from america was nearly non-existent for me-it was great, perhaps when retirement comes and SS, I can get lost again, I was thinking of Denmark where that other guy I like, who was also deranged, lived-I visited his grave once).

Complexity is a problem but I think with ideas, complexity increases access points (I think a lot of people here attempt a contentless post to reduce these access points because these can sink a thought). It takes more work though, but it comes with its rewards-he who does not work does not eat. In systems theory, the system, and in this case the mind, works to reduce complexity around it, but it needs it to reduce it, and an increasingly complex environment will require more reduction (mental effort), well, less content, think of the really dumb. One can hate Calvin, but there is more to one's hatred than what is passing here, there is always more. In conversation, face to face, getting the other angry sometimes brings out the truth, but most think too highly of themselves to admit that they are just as evil.

Everyone hawking something is pretty much the way I interpret it all-what you say there, I would agree with in the ideal. Everyone has some vision of how they want the world, want to reduce other's power as the other stands in the way (sort of conflict theory-but one only needs to step back and listen to all the rhetoric to hear it, I like Calvin so I am opposition, and have to lose); usually not in a personal way (I think individuals have lost any ability to be individuals but must coagulate into a scab), but within a group, or better, with the ideology of a group (democrats, republicans, gays, blacks, etc {this abstracts the individual and ethics gets confused}-the post modern condition, and the church is captured by the social as well). Power is fluid and can't be held permanently, so one can easily lose it. A return to calvinism, if not just some wishy/washy simulation, could threaten the liberal christian movement (as I wrote, even fundys are liberal, so a conservative church nearly no longer exists). This could threaten, well, the whole edifice of free will, gay clergy, the move toward a christian sanction on abortion, the inerrant scripture doctrine, and a host of other "progressive" church visions. A loss of power, as the more intelligent in christianity knows, power can be lost over night-it is not owned.

I was being a little ironic and sarcastic. They were barbarians, I guess one could say-the times dictated what they did. The catholics ruled Europe, people were breaking away, anarchy was possible, returning to the pope, etc. In Calvin's place and with the law then, I would have had Servetus jailed and probably executed as well (I think lots of people need executing today, and with the power, I would have it done)-I do not know. But our history pretty much out barbarians them. 1900 t0 2000 has got to be the most barbaric time in all of history. To stop a "religion" in Vietnam from spreading we killed over 2.5 million of them and then just left, and christians helped paid for and executed it, christians killed each other in the world wars, america a-bombed one of the few christian communities in Japan (located in Nagasaki), the Luthern church threw in with state socialism in Germany, we lawyer each other in court to bankruptcy, abort millions, and have a 60 per cent divorce, the free love and expanding mind movement of the sixties has destroyed how many?, drug use here has killed many Mexicans, etc, etc , etc, etc. Those people in 1500 were amateurs-each one of these jokers bitching about Calvin, especially catholics, the group they belong to, has just as sordid history-if nothing else then coming here and taking land from native americans either actively or parasitically waiting on the army and not dirtying themselves.

History is slim if you ask me. Out of the trillions and trillions of acts, how much do we have? There are several ways history is done and that determines how it is judged, interpreted. Bias is absolutely everywhere (phenomenology was an attempt to get it out but I think most gave up). But I guess one can say such and such happened and here is what I think, but if one was not there, one really is setting oneself up to be a fool-well who else is sure?, one can get away with it within their little choir group. Because they viewed the world different they would have behaved within that context not ours. If you judge back ward, you put your context back then and that is absolutely dumb. However, if one thinks one has the absolute eternal right and wrong, well I guess it is possible, but then one is an idiot or god.

I am not saying everyone needs Calvin, matter of fact I haven't found one person in all my years who could engage in an intelligent discussion about the theology-obviously to me the modern church is a mental ignorant church and it gets along as that, so why bother. The sarcasm is in response to how people today assume they have the independent power to judge and that their mind is the product of their own self. This idea is just stupid. Most people can't even wipe themselves properly let alone have an independent mind. If one does not follow Calvin, there is someone else (derivatives of Finney, Scholfield, the pope, Joyce Meyer, the christian jew movement, etc, etc, etc). Independent thought does not exist, especially here. There is always a systematic structure that one gets from outside-that is what I was referring to, and then they usually bastardize it, or localize it, and use it to get a world within its vision.

It is impossible to think outside the box. The alien joke was referring to the idea that to think as a totally independent self one would have to have come from far away not connected to the social system.

I like theology, and philosophy. People are different. One always tires of things and wants to move on. The problem is when one is a certain way and that one thinks everyone should be that way as well-this is a very christian atitude in my experience however, and when certain events in process now take over the church, I will leave it and be able to sleep in on sundays. I now avoid most people in a serious way as that seems to be a human trait now (the drive for sameness) and as most people are tired of theology, well, that cuts down on my social time and I can work on my old Ford truck-which is one of the really most important things in life. Calvin's clothes, well at that time, were very sad; from my fashion sense, perhaps suited up in Dior (or the fundy David Wilkerson outfit) and a good photographer may surprise you (but setting around WalMart doesn't look improved dress and looks to me). He did marry, but had terrible hemorrhoids, that would sadden one's face on anyone.

I would have to disagree about his stuff being meaningless. I get a lot of meaning from his work. What you say here is taking an opinion and run it through all reality, you really do not have that kind of power. If this is the criteria, that ideas must come from a "pure" heart, and there are lots of ways to have a dirty heart besides what he did, then no thought has meaning. One can say this but then one does not understand "meaning". Clanging gong is when one does not have love. No man has this love to be other than clanging-the heart is wicked and all have gone astray-therefore, we all clang-god is the one who points to something and says it is something other then it is. Grace has to be given to all thoughts as no thought measures up.

I have studied myself for years and I do not know, apart from bias, self centeredness, stupidity, conformism, etc, why I am drawn to certain things (theologically I know)-that is the way it is I guess.

I hate to tell another where he/she came from as I do not have a personal history to guess, but generally one is a product of the social you have found yourself in; your values you pulled in from around you-your eyes are the center of the world, places you there, so that is where you judge it from.
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Old 01-20-2011, 09:22 PM
 
Location: US
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Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
All those who believe the OT descriptions of the evil acts and motivations attributed to God are good because it is God who supposedly did them or ordered them. Evil is evil and the only source of evil is Satan. Evil can never be Good just because our ancestors believed it was done or ordered by God. If we do not have the independent ability to recognize evil on our own (devoid of the"precepts and doctrines of men") . . . we are failing to mature in our spiritual development.
Wow...what can one say to that?...
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Old 01-20-2011, 09:29 PM
 
Location: US
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Originally Posted by kazoopilot View Post
I've never heard that Calvin killed a man. I'm actually a Calvinist theologically, and I've never heard of that. Is that confirmed, or just a rumor made to discredit Calvinism?
I am a Calvinist also, He indirectly killed a man named Servetus, and if memory serves he was burned alive by the orders of the King Of Spain on Calvin's encouragement...
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Old 01-20-2011, 09:51 PM
 
Location: US
26,384 posts, read 13,994,881 times
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Originally Posted by trettep View Post
I'm saying that I didn't know he did such a thing. Murder is contrary to the Spirit of God. If we abide in scripture then we don't go around acting like Saul which is what this historical record indicates about Calvin. So I didn't say that whatever Calvin said is null and void. Because Calvin probably said that God is GOOD and I believe that. If anything I'm saying Judge the Spirits to see whether they be of God or not.

From what I have researched already it was Calvin that turned Servetus over to the authorities knowing full well they would set to kill Servetus. That is the same as killing him.

Calvin is recorded to have said this about Servetus:

Servetus has just sent me a long volume of his ravings. If I consent he will come here, but I will not give my word for if he comes here, if my authority is worth anything, I will never permit him to depart alive ("Si venerit, modo valeat mea autoritas, vivum exire nunquam patiar")

And Calvin wrote a week after Servetus arrest:

...after he [Servetus] had been recognized, I thought he should be detained. My friend Nicolas summoned him on a capital charge, offering himself as a security according to the lex talionis. On the following day he adduced against him forty written charges. He at first sought to evade them. Accordingly we were summoned. He impudently reviled me, just as if he regarded me as obnoxious to him. I answered him as he deserved... of the manís effrontery I will say nothing; but such was his madness that he did not hesitate to say that devils possessed divinity; yea, that many gods were in individual devils, inasmuch as a deity had been substantially communicated to those equally with wood and stone. I hope that sentence of death will at least be passed on him; but I desired that the severity of the punishment be mitigated.

Michael Servetus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Research what exactly did Michael Servetus believe and preach...and then look in the old testament and see how God said these things should be handled...And i would take Wiki with a grain of salt...It is not always the most reliable or unbiased source of information...
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