U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
 
 
Old 01-18-2011, 11:19 AM
 
Location: Oregon
3,066 posts, read 2,940,707 times
Reputation: 255

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by sschulz View Post
Hi O-Ducky The word Jesus used to describe Peter was petros , which means "a small stone". The rock he will build his church on is petra which means a large rock or ledge. Christ was saying he will build his church on the fact that the knowledge that Christ was the son of God was given to Peter by God and not through men( Remember no man may come to me lest the Father draws him). Peter understood and that meant that God was moving within him to reveal his truths and that is what Jesus will build his church on.
RESPONSE:

Sorry. The Gospel of John claims otherwise. This event preceded Peter even becoming an apostle.

John 1:40- 42
"
One of the two who heard John speak and followed him was Andrew, Simon Peter’s brother. He first found his brother Simon and said to him, ‘We have found the Messiah’ (which is translated Anointed. He brought Simon to Jesus, who looked at him and said, ‘You are Simon son of John. You are to be called Cephas’ (which is translated Peter)." (NRSV)
Quick reply to this message

 
Old 01-18-2011, 11:23 AM
 
1,837 posts, read 1,587,306 times
Reputation: 297
Quote:
Originally Posted by ancient warrior View Post
RESPONSE:

Sorry. The Gospel of John claims otherwise. This event preceded Peter even becoming an apostle.

John 1:40- 42
"One of the two who heard John speak and followed him was Andrew, Simon Peter’s brother. He first found his brother Simon and said to him, ‘We have found the Messiah’ (which is translated Anointed. He brought Simon to Jesus, who looked at him and said, ‘You are Simon son of John. You are to be called Cephas’ (which is translated Peter)." (NRSV)
So everyone here on this forum that we tell Jesus is the Son of God to, has recieved this revelation (if they believe it), because we told them?

John 6:44
For no one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them to me, and at the last day I will raise them up.

Last edited by O-Ducky; 01-18-2011 at 11:33 AM..
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-18-2011, 11:31 AM
juj
 
Location: Too far from MSG
1,657 posts, read 2,285,912 times
Reputation: 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by sschulz View Post
Hi O-Ducky The word Jesus used to describe Peter was petros , which means "a small stone". The rock he will build his church on is petra which means a large rock or ledge. Christ was saying he will build his church on the fact that the knowledge that Christ was the son of God was given to Peter by God and not through men( Remember no man may come to me lest the Father draws him). Peter understood and that meant that God was moving within him to reveal his truths and that is what Jesus will build his church on.
Please stop using that argument of the "small stone". In the day there was no difference between the meaning of Petra and Petros. Besides, do you want Peter to have the feminine version of the name? Besides, Jesus didn't use the term Petros. He used the Aramaic name "Kepha" for which there is only one meaning. Please educate yourself with these facts and NEVER present them to anyone again because they are false.

Excerpt from: Peter the Rock (This Rock: November 1998)

"What I did not know at the time was that the linguistic argument made by some Protestants regarding the Greek text’s use of the terms petros and petra was off base. There had been a distinction between the meanings of these terms in some early Greek poetry, but that distinction was gone by the time of Jesus. In the first century, when Matthew’s Gospel was composed, the two terms were synonyms (cf. D. A. Carson’s treatment of the passage in The Expositor’s Bible Commentary, published by Zondervan).

I also had not devoted sufficient attention to the fact that Jesus and Peter did not speak Greek in everyday language, but Aramaic. (Greek was the language of commerce in first century Palestine; Aramaic was the language of everyday life.) Behind the Greek text of Matthew 16:17–19 there was an Aramaic conversation, and in the conversation there would have been no distinction between the terms representing
petros and petra. In both cases, the same word—kepha (from which we get "Cephas")—would have been used. Hermeneutically, one should read a translation text in harmony with the language that underlies it since the translation is simply a means to understanding what originally was said. Consequently, Jesus’ statement in Aramaic—"You are kepha and on this kepha I will build my Church"—should be decisive for our interpretation."
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-18-2011, 11:38 AM
 
1,837 posts, read 1,587,306 times
Reputation: 297
Quote:
Originally Posted by juj View Post
Please stop using that argument of the "small stone". In the day there was no difference between the meaning of Petra and Petros. Besides, do you want Peter to have the feminine version of the name? Besides, Jesus didn't use the term Petros. He used the Aramaic name "Kepha" for which there is only one meaning. Please educate yourself with these facts and NEVER present them to anyone again because they are false.

Excerpt from: Peter the Rock (This Rock: November 1998)

"What I did not know at the time was that the linguistic argument made by some Protestants regarding the Greek text’s use of the terms petros and petra was off base. There had been a distinction between the meanings of these terms in some early Greek poetry, but that distinction was gone by the time of Jesus. In the first century, when Matthew’s Gospel was composed, the two terms were synonyms (cf. D. A. Carson’s treatment of the passage in The Expositor’s Bible Commentary, published by Zondervan).

I also had not devoted sufficient attention to the fact that Jesus and Peter did not speak Greek in everyday language, but Aramaic. (Greek was the language of commerce in first century Palestine; Aramaic was the language of everyday life.) Behind the Greek text of Matthew 16:17–19 there was an Aramaic conversation, and in the conversation there would have been no distinction between the terms representing petros and petra. In both cases, the same word—kepha (from which we get "Cephas")—would have been used. Hermeneutically, one should read a translation text in harmony with the language that underlies it since the translation is simply a means to understanding what originally was said. Consequently, Jesus’ statement in Aramaic—"You are kepha and on this kepha I will build my Church"—should be decisive for our interpretation."
Thanks for posting that, and the link. That makes so much sense to me.
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-18-2011, 03:45 PM
 
351 posts, read 283,433 times
Reputation: 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by juj View Post
Please stop using that argument of the "small stone". In the day there was no difference between the meaning of Petra and Petros. Besides, do you want Peter to have the feminine version of the name? Besides, Jesus didn't use the term Petros. He used the Aramaic name "Kepha" for which there is only one meaning. Please educate yourself with these facts and NEVER present them to anyone again because they are false.

Excerpt from: Peter the Rock (This Rock: November 1998)

"What I did not know at the time was that the linguistic argument made by some Protestants regarding the Greek text’s use of the terms petros and petra was off base. There had been a distinction between the meanings of these terms in some early Greek poetry, but that distinction was gone by the time of Jesus. In the first century, when Matthew’s Gospel was composed, the two terms were synonyms (cf. D. A. Carson’s treatment of the passage in The Expositor’s Bible Commentary, published by Zondervan).

I also had not devoted sufficient attention to the fact that Jesus and Peter did not speak Greek in everyday language, but Aramaic. (Greek was the language of commerce in first century Palestine; Aramaic was the language of everyday life.) Behind the Greek text of Matthew 16:17–19 there was an Aramaic conversation, and in the conversation there would have been no distinction between the terms representing
petros and petra. In both cases, the same word—kepha (from which we get "Cephas")—would have been used. Hermeneutically, one should read a translation text in harmony with the language that underlies it since the translation is simply a means to understanding what originally was said. Consequently, Jesus’ statement in Aramaic—"You are kepha and on this kepha I will build my Church"—should be decisive for our interpretation."
Hi juj; The New Testament books were written in Greek not Aramaic.

Christ did not build his church on Peter, a man, he built it on the fact that God had revealed the information to Peter. It does not matter what anyone told Peter before about Christ and who he was, that was what they thought. Till Peter knew in his heart that Jesus was The Christ, the Son of God. That was when God had extended his Grace(Divine influence on the Heart) to Peter and gave him the knowledge of Jesus. This is what Jesus is building his church on the Grace of God, not a flesh and blood man.
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-18-2011, 06:01 PM
 
7,871 posts, read 6,680,078 times
Reputation: 1372
This church that Jesus built in His Believers is also in John 4:.20-24...a Samaria women said to Jesus...``Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and you say that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship...``.. Jesus said ``.Women believe me , the hour comes when you shall neither in the mountain , nor at Jerusalem , Worship the Father..... You worship you know not what, we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews..... But the hours comes and now is , when the true worshipers shall worship the father in spirit and in truth for the Father, seeks such to worship him........ God is a Spirit and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and truth``...............Jesus will build his church on the Rock of Christ and the foundations of the temple will be on HIS Believers and the world can never destroy this temple as bricks and mortar...as it will be in HIS believers
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-18-2011, 06:33 PM
 
Location: Oregon
3,066 posts, read 2,940,707 times
Reputation: 255
Quote:
Originally Posted by O-Ducky View Post
So everyone here on this forum that we tell Jesus is the Son of God to, has recieved this revelation (if they believe it), because we told them?

John 6:44
For no one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them to me, and at the last day I will raise them up.
RESPONSE:

Yep. Unless they heard if from someone else first.

BTY. There are lots of "sons of God" in the Old Testament.
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-18-2011, 06:37 PM
 
Location: Oregon
3,066 posts, read 2,940,707 times
Reputation: 255
Quote:
Originally Posted by hljc View Post
This church that Jesus built in His Believers is also in John 4:.20-24...a Samaria women said to Jesus...``Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and you say that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship...``.. Jesus said ``.Women believe me , the hour comes when you shall neither in the mountain , nor at Jerusalem , Worship the Father..... You worship you know not what, we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews..... But the hours comes and now is , when the true worshipers shall worship the father in spirit and in truth for the Father, seeks such to worship him........ God is a Spirit and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and truth``...............Jesus will build his church on the Rock of Christ and the foundations of the temple will be on HIS Believers and the world can never destroy this temple as bricks and mortar...as it will be in HIS believers
RESPONSE:

Neither Jesus nor is immediate followers founded or built a new Church. They remained observant Jews. Read Acts of the Apostles.

After the original Jerusalem community was crushed by the Romans, Paul's church became the Christian church.
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-18-2011, 06:39 PM
 
5,500 posts, read 4,420,729 times
Reputation: 5147
Quote:
Originally Posted by ancient warrior View Post
after the original jerusalem community was crushed by the romans, paul's church became the christian church.
bingo!
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-18-2011, 07:21 PM
juj
 
Location: Too far from MSG
1,657 posts, read 2,285,912 times
Reputation: 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by sschulz View Post
Hi juj; The New Testament books were written in Greek not Aramaic.

Christ did not build his church on Peter, a man, he built it on the fact that God had revealed the information to Peter. It does not matter what anyone told Peter before about Christ and who he was, that was what they thought. Till Peter knew in his heart that Jesus was The Christ, the Son of God. That was when God had extended his Grace(Divine influence on the Heart) to Peter and gave him the knowledge of Jesus. This is what Jesus is building his church on the Grace of God, not a flesh and blood man.
The early Christians and Early Church Fathers disagree with your interpretation. Yes, the NT was mostly written in Greek, but that's not the point. Jesus spoke with Peter in Aramaic, not Greek. There is no feminine version of rock in Aramaic. There is only one word for rock and that is Kepha. When it was written in Greek, they had to use the name Petros, because that is the male version of the name. Beside, if you actually read my excerpt you would notice that by Jesus's day that there was NO difference in meaning between the term Petros and Petra.

You can believe what you choose, but let it be known that you WERE told the Truth as the early Church understood it to be.
Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


 
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:
Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2018, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top