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Old 01-17-2011, 07:00 PM
 
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Matthew 16

16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”

17 Jesus replied, “You are blessed, Simon son of John, because my Father in heaven has revealed this to you. You did not learn this from any human being. 18 Now I say to you that you are Peter (which means ‘rock’), and upon this rock I will build my church, and all the powers of hell will not conquer it. 19 And I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven. Whatever you forbid on earth will be forbidden in heaven, and whatever you permit on earth will be permitted in heaven.” 20 Then he sternly warned the disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Messiah.

Christ, speaking of Peter, said upon this rock I will build my church. I don't think Christ was guessing if Peter was going to be a very productive disciple for the Kingdom of God. Peter really deserves some credit here. What a blessing it is to have his writiings too. This brother witnessed some pretty impressive things, with Jesus. It's like a miracle that we have the writings from the witnesses and disciples of Christ and who's lives were obviosly drastically morally changed. So much good trusty word!!!
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Old 01-17-2011, 09:12 PM
juj
 
Location: Too far from MSG
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Originally Posted by O-Ducky View Post
Matthew 16

16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”

17 Jesus replied, “You are blessed, Simon son of John, because my Father in heaven has revealed this to you. You did not learn this from any human being. 18 Now I say to you that you are Peter (which means ‘rock’), and upon this rock I will build my church, and all the powers of hell will not conquer it. 19 And I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven. Whatever you forbid on earth will be forbidden in heaven, and whatever you permit on earth will be permitted in heaven.” 20 Then he sternly warned the disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Messiah.

Christ, speaking of Peter, said upon this rock I will build my church. I don't think Christ was guessing if Peter was going to be a very productive disciple for the Kingdom of God. Peter really deserves some credit here. What a blessing it is to have his writiings too. This brother witnessed some pretty impressive things, with Jesus. It's like a miracle that we have the writings from the witnesses and disciples of Christ and who's lives were obviosly drastically morally changed. So much good trusty word!!!
Does this mean that Christ left us a Church and not the Bible?
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Old 01-17-2011, 09:16 PM
 
Location: Gulf Coast Texas
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Originally Posted by juj View Post
Does this mean that Christ left us a Church and not the Bible?
Both.
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Old 01-18-2011, 12:02 AM
 
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Originally Posted by DRob4JC View Post
Both.
How is that?
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Old 01-18-2011, 04:11 AM
 
Location: Oregon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by O-Ducky View Post
Matthew 16

16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”

17 Jesus replied, “You are blessed, Simon son of John, because my Father in heaven has revealed this to you. You did not learn this from any human being. 18 Now I say to you that you are Peter (which means ‘rock’), and upon this rock I will build my church, and all the powers of hell will not conquer it. 19 And I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven. Whatever you forbid on earth will be forbidden in heaven, and whatever you permit on earth will be permitted in heaven.” 20 Then he sternly warned the disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Messiah.

Christ, speaking of Peter, said upon this rock I will build my church. I don't think Christ was guessing if Peter was going to be a very productive disciple for the Kingdom of God. Peter really deserves some credit here. What a blessing it is to have his writiings too. This brother witnessed some pretty impressive things, with Jesus. It's like a miracle that we have the writings from the witnesses and disciples of Christ and who's lives were obviosly drastically morally changed. So much good trusty word!!!
RESPONSE:

Mark wrote the original passage. Matthew and Luke copied. Matthew (or some subsequent writer) added verses 17 through 19 which are not found in Mark's original nor in Luke's.

Curiously, these are contradicted in John 1 and Acts of the Apostles.

John 1:40- 42
"One of the two who heard John speak and followed him was Andrew, Simon Peter’s brother. He first found his brother Simon and said to him, ‘We have found the Messiah’ (which is translated Anointed. He brought Simon to Jesus, who looked at him and said, ‘You are Simon son of John. You are to be called Cephas’ (which is translated Peter)." (NRSV)

Thus Simon was first told that Jesus was the messiah by Andrew, not God, and Simon had his name changed to Peter before he became an apostle.

Throughout Acts of the Apostles, an account of Jesus' original followers, Jesus' followers never founded a church but remained a very observant "sect" within mainline Judaism.

Both of these facts strongly suggest an interpolation (addition) to Mark's original Gospel.

Last edited by ancient warrior; 01-18-2011 at 04:12 AM.. Reason: typo
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Old 01-18-2011, 06:12 AM
 
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Originally Posted by DRob4JC View Post
Both.
I think I heard something about the disciples calling thier fellowship "The Way". I could have that wrong but I'm pretty sure. Does anyone know about "The Way". I've really only heard that once or twice and never dug to deep into it.

This is also very interesting:

Matthew 19


27 Then Peter said to him, “We’ve given up everything to follow you. What will we get?”
28 Jesus replied, “I assure you that when the world is made new and the Son of Man sits upon his glorious throne, you who have been my followers will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Now I know there is no way any of us can understand everything about Heaven but we can say that there is order and positions.

*Obviously Judas was never in that picture of 12 (thrones) and was replaced.
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Old 01-18-2011, 06:23 AM
 
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Originally Posted by ancient warrior View Post
RESPONSE:

Mark wrote the original passage. Matthew and Luke copied. Matthew (or some subsequent writer) added verses 17 through 19 which are not found in Mark's original nor in Luke's.

Curiously, these are contradicted in John 1 and Acts of the Apostles.

John 1:40- 42
"One of the two who heard John speak and followed him was Andrew, Simon Peter’s brother. He first found his brother Simon and said to him, ‘We have found the Messiah’ (which is translated Anointed. He brought Simon to Jesus, who looked at him and said, ‘You are Simon son of John. You are to be called Cephas’ (which is translated Peter)." (NRSV)

Thus Simon was first told that Jesus was the messiah by Andrew, not God, and Simon had his name changed to Peter before he became an apostle.

Throughout Acts of the Apostles, an account of Jesus' original followers, Jesus' followers never founded a church but remained a very observant "sect" within mainline Judaism.

Both of these facts strongly suggest an interpolation (addition) to Mark's original Gospel.
It may have been added after it was written but that doesn't mean it isn't true that Christ said that. I believe this was proven in the life of Peter, immediately after the ressurection of Christ. It's undeniable, and makes perfect sense. Peter, John, and James were the select few to see the mount of transfiguration as well. That's why I'd call the books written by Peter and John part of the "found-ation"

Also, I don't think Christ was speaking of human revelation. He was saying that it was God who instilled this firmly in Peter's heart.

I do appreciate your knowledge of this though and don't take me the wrong way. Good stuff.
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Old 01-18-2011, 07:44 AM
 
Location: Oregon
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Originally Posted by O-Ducky View Post
It may have been added after it was written but that doesn't mean it isn't true that Christ said that. I believe this was proven in the life of Peter, immediately after the ressurection of Christ. It's undeniable, and makes perfect sense. Peter, John, and James were the select few to see the mount of transfiguration as well. That's why I'd call the books written by Peter and John part of the "found-ation"

Also, I don't think Christ was speaking of human revelation. He was saying that it was God who instilled this firmly in Peter's heart.

I do appreciate your knowledge of this though and don't take me the wrong way. Good stuff.
RESPONSE:

>>It may have been added after it was written but that doesn't mean it isn't true that Christ said that.<<

Are you seriously claiming that Christ said he was founding a church, but Mark, Luke, and John failed to note that?

Matt 5:17-18
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place."

Jesus directed that his followers remain faithful Jew, not members of a new church.

However, once a different church was founded (by Paul), it needed scriptural support. Thus the interpolation was useful.

Mark 8:27-30
Now Jesus and his disciples set out for the villages of Caesarea Philippi. Along the way he asked his disciples, "Who do people say that I am?" They said in reply, "John the Baptist, others Elijah, still others one of the prophets." And he asked them, "But who do you say that I am?" Peter said to him in reply, "You are the Messiah." Then he warned them not to tell anyone about him.

Matt 16”13-20
When Jesus went into the region of Caesarea Philippi he asked his disciples, "Who do people say that the Son of Man is?" They replied, "Some say John the Baptist, others Elijah, still others Jeremiah or one of the prophets."]He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" Simon Peter said in reply, "You are the Messiah

Probable later insert ***( the Son of the living God." Jesus said to him in reply, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father. And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.")***

Then he strictly ordered his disciples to tell no one that he was the Messiah.”

Note that, except for the apparent insert, Matthew’s gospel is virtually a verbatim copy of Mark's. What do you conclude from that?

Last edited by ancient warrior; 01-18-2011 at 07:55 AM.. Reason: Removed [SIZE]s
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Old 01-18-2011, 07:44 AM
 
351 posts, read 283,217 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by O-Ducky View Post
Matthew 16

16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”

17 Jesus replied, “You are blessed, Simon son of John, because my Father in heaven has revealed this to you. You did not learn this from any human being. 18 Now I say to you that you are Peter (which means ‘rock’), and upon this rock I will build my church, and all the powers of hell will not conquer it. 19 And I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven. Whatever you forbid on earth will be forbidden in heaven, and whatever you permit on earth will be permitted in heaven.” 20 Then he sternly warned the disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Messiah.

Christ, speaking of Peter, said upon this rock I will build my church. I don't think Christ was guessing if Peter was going to be a very productive disciple for the Kingdom of God. Peter really deserves some credit here. What a blessing it is to have his writiings too. This brother witnessed some pretty impressive things, with Jesus. It's like a miracle that we have the writings from the witnesses and disciples of Christ and who's lives were obviosly drastically morally changed. So much good trusty word!!!
Hi O-Ducky The word Jesus used to describe Peter was petros , which means "a small stone". The rock he will build his church on is petra which means a large rock or ledge. Christ was saying he will build his church on the fact that the knowledge that Christ was the son of God was given to Peter by God and not through men( Remember no man may come to me lest the Father draws him). Peter understood and that meant that God was moving within him to reveal his truths and that is what Jesus will build his church on.
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Old 01-18-2011, 08:49 AM
 
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Originally Posted by sschulz View Post
Hi O-Ducky The word Jesus used to describe Peter was petros , which means "a small stone". The rock he will build his church on is petra which means a large rock or ledge. Christ was saying he will build his church on the fact that the knowledge that Christ was the son of God was given to Peter by God and not through men( Remember no man may come to me lest the Father draws him). Peter understood and that meant that God was moving within him to reveal his truths and that is what Jesus will build his church on.
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