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Old 01-18-2011, 11:53 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
Simply not true

“Teacher,” said John, “we saw a man driving out demons in your name and we told him to stop, because he was not one of us.”
“Do not stop him,” Jesus said. “No one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me, for whoever is not against us is for us. I tell you the truth, anyone who gives you a cup of water in my name because you belong to Christ will certainly not lose his reward.

That man was actually casting out demons, but the frauds "proclaim" to be doing it; they are either fanatics or just plain old frauds -- so Jesus does not know them.
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Old 01-18-2011, 12:01 PM
 
Location: East Coast
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Originally Posted by scgraham View Post
That man was actually casting out demons, but the frauds "proclaim" to be doing it; they are either fanatics or just plain old frauds -- so Jesus does not know them.

There is no reference to this at all, but there is reference that they were actually doing so
And if I drive out demons by Beelzebub, by whom do your people drive them out? So then, they will be your judges.Matt 12:27

The confusion "In the name" arises from the assumption Jesus literally meant his name(Jesus).

Am i right in thinking Christianity believes God has 3 names for Jesus ? Father,Son and Holy Ghost , there is no doubt you believe these are names and not titles, otherwise you would not baptize in them.
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Old 01-18-2011, 02:22 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brunette49 View Post
This was sent to me by a site called God's Daily Word Ministries and I want to know exactly how a person gets into the kingdom of heaven. I find this confusing.

Matthew 7:21-23
"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the Kingdom of Heaven, but only he who does the will of My Father who is in Heaven. Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from Me, you evildoers!'"

Clearly, being "good" does not ensure we are known by Jesus. Neither does going to church, reading our Bible, teaching Sunday School...or even writing devotional messages! Jesus knows, and takes away the sin, of "only he who does the will of My Father."

Fortunately, Jesus also tells us exactly how to do His Father's will: "For My Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day" (John 6:40). The will of our Heavenly Father is to truly know and be known by His Son.
John 6:40

The will of the Father is specific..."everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him" then and only then "shall have eternal life"

It is obvious that these people who say this in Matthew 7:21-23 did not correctly looked to the Son and believed. As God said...
Acts 4:12
"Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.”
These people had it wrong (for whatever reason) about Jesus. The opportunity for people "for which we must be saved" is available while we are "under heaven" ... not when people are face to face in front of Jesus pleading their case.
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Old 01-18-2011, 03:16 PM
 
2,526 posts, read 2,320,323 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
There is no reference to this at all, but there is reference that they were actually doing so
And if I drive out demons by Beelzebub, by whom do your people drive them out? So then, they will be your judges.Matt 12:27

The confusion "In the name" arises from the assumption Jesus literally meant his name(Jesus).

Am i right in thinking Christianity believes God has 3 names for Jesus ? Father,Son and Holy Ghost , there is no doubt you believe these are names and not titles, otherwise you would not baptize in them.
I agree with you on this. In fact I think those who make "professions" did all the works that they professed to, and Jesus does not dispute what they're telling Him. What Jesus does dispute however is that their works are not sufficient to enter the Kingdom. It is Christ's righteousness imputed to us, through faith, that is missing.

Some other observations here:

Mat 7:21 `Not every one who is saying to me Lord, lord, shall come into the reign of the heavens; but he who is doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, lord, have we not in thy name prophesied? and in thy name cast out demons? and in thy name done many mighty things?
Mat 7:23 and then I will acknowledge to them, that--I never knew you, depart from me ye who are working lawlessness.

The words "saying to me" (ver 21) are used in the present tense, (Judas comes to mind?). Jesus was speaking to those at that moment. He also uses the present tense for "doing the will of my Father". This tells us that there were many that were relying on their own righteousness and works and did not acknowledge, or submit (Rom 10:3) to the righteousness of Christ. They did not believe on Jesus.

Also, in verse 23, the second clause: "depart from me ye who are working lawlessness", the words "ye who" are being translated from the definite article in the Greek "οι". Perhaps a more simple and literal rendering would be:

Mat 7:23 and then I will acknowledge to them, that--I never knew you, depart from me the workings of the lawlessness.

IOW, it's their works of lawlessness that Jesus says to "depart from me".

The reason I think this is true is that in the next verses, Jesus tells us:

Mat 7:24 `Therefore, every one who doth hear of me these words, and doth do them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house upon the rock;
Mat 7:25 and the rain did descend, and the streams came, and the winds blew, and they beat on that house, and it fell not, for it had been founded on the rock.
Mat 7:26 `And every one who is hearing of me these words, and is not doing them, shall be likened to a foolish man who built his house upon the sand;
Mat 7:27 and the rain did descend, and the streams came, and the winds blew, and they beat on that house, and it fell, and its fall was great.'

It is the works (that house) that suffers the loss, not the foolish person, per se. The works (that house) is in view here.

This also fits in well with what Paul tells us that the work will be lost, however the worker himself is saved, but so by fire:

1Co 3:15 if of any the work is burned up, he shall suffer loss; and himself shall be saved, but so as through fire.

Anyway, just some thoughts here...

PCamps: Good to see you back brother
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Old 01-18-2011, 04:29 PM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,423,420 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilene Wright View Post
I find that particular scripture from Matthew confusing as well. Apparently there are people casting out demons and prophesying in Jesus' name but are not believers? I find that hard to believe but that's what it seems to be saying.....however........we must understand that not everyone will immediately inherit the kingdom of God, only believers. But ALL will be reconciled to God in the end.
Hi Ilene,

I'm going to give you an answer here: an answer that perhaps many people will not understand nor like, but I'm hoping you will understand. Let's think about this.

Who is it in our world who is doing many mighty works in Jesus' name, driving out demons, prophesying, healing, etc. Doing mighty works, in Jesus' name no less, yet Jesus does not know them. We could call them "unbelievers".

Who does this describe?

Are the Muslims doing many mighty works in the name of Jesus? How about Buddihists, other religions, or even atheists - are they doing mighty works in the name of Jesus?

Now I'm not saying that those groups cannot do any mighty works - but certainly they are not proclaiming good works in the name of Jesus. They don't even believe in Jesus.

So who is it that Jesus is talking about in Matt 7:21-23? Who are doing all these great and mighty things IN THE NAME OF JESUS? Look around. Look at your neighborhood church. Look at the giant mega-churches. Look at the televangelists. Some of them do some pretty mighty works in the name of Jesus - healing, prophesying, driving out demons etc. But do they believe?

Do they really believe that JESUS is the SAVIOR OF THE WORLD? Do they believe that God will have all men to be saved? No they do not. THEY ARE UNBELIEVERS. Shocking I know. Most here won't admit it. They don't know God - they don't have eonian life (John 17:3) - and thus Jesus does not know them. "Depart from me for I never knew you".

Just some observations and JMHO which could be completely wrong. Think about it though...
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Old 01-18-2011, 06:42 PM
 
Location: SC Foothills
8,830 posts, read 9,773,260 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Hi Ilene,

I'm going to give you an answer here: an answer that perhaps many people will not understand nor like, but I'm hoping you will understand. Let's think about this.

Who is it in our world who is doing many mighty works in Jesus' name, driving out demons, prophesying, healing, etc. Doing mighty works, in Jesus' name no less, yet Jesus does not know them. We could call them "unbelievers".

Who does this describe?

Are the Muslims doing many mighty works in the name of Jesus? How about Buddihists, other religions, or even atheists - are they doing mighty works in the name of Jesus?

Now I'm not saying that those groups cannot do any mighty works - but certainly they are not proclaiming good works in the name of Jesus. They don't even believe in Jesus.

So who is it that Jesus is talking about in Matt 7:21-23? Who are doing all these great and mighty things IN THE NAME OF JESUS? Look around. Look at your neighborhood church. Look at the giant mega-churches. Look at the televangelists. Some of them do some pretty mighty works in the name of Jesus - healing, prophesying, driving out demons etc. But do they believe?

Do they really believe that JESUS is the SAVIOR OF THE WORLD? Do they believe that God will have all men to be saved? No they do not. THEY ARE UNBELIEVERS. Shocking I know. Most here won't admit it. They don't know God - they don't have eonian life (John 17:3) - and thus Jesus does not know them. "Depart from me for I never knew you".

Just some observations and JMHO which could be completely wrong. Think about it though...
No I completely agree with this Legoman, I just don't know how to put it as eloquently as you do! Thanks, I see what you are saying and understand. You're so right, there are many out there who are doing "works' in the name of Jesus but they do not believe He is the Savior of the world. Many many, many.
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Old 01-18-2011, 07:14 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,825 posts, read 9,848,697 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Hi Ilene,

I'm going to give you an answer here: an answer that perhaps many people will not understand nor like, but I'm hoping you will understand. Let's think about this.

Who is it in our world who is doing many mighty works in Jesus' name, driving out demons, prophesying, healing, etc. Doing mighty works, in Jesus' name no less, yet Jesus does not know them. We could call them "unbelievers".

Who does this describe?

Are the Muslims doing many mighty works in the name of Jesus? How about Buddihists, other religions, or even atheists - are they doing mighty works in the name of Jesus?

Now I'm not saying that those groups cannot do any mighty works - but certainly they are not proclaiming good works in the name of Jesus. They don't even believe in Jesus.

So who is it that Jesus is talking about in Matt 7:21-23? Who are doing all these great and mighty things IN THE NAME OF JESUS? Look around. Look at your neighborhood church. Look at the giant mega-churches. Look at the televangelists. Some of them do some pretty mighty works in the name of Jesus - healing, prophesying, driving out demons etc. But do they believe?

Do they really believe that JESUS is the SAVIOR OF THE WORLD? Do they believe that God will have all men to be saved? No they do not. THEY ARE UNBELIEVERS. Shocking I know. Most here won't admit it. They don't know God - they don't have eonian life (John 17:3) - and thus Jesus does not know them. "Depart from me for I never knew you".

Just some observations and JMHO which could be completely wrong. Think about it though...
You are correct .... never means never

"Depart from me for I never knew you".

Other examples of where never means never

So I declared on oath in my anger, ‘They shall never enter my rest.’ ”
And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest if not to those who disobeyed ?
Now we who have believed enter that rest, just as God has said, “So I declared on oath in my anger, ‘They shall never enter my rest.’ ”


(only those who believe will enter that rest....those who do not believe will never enter the kingdom of heaven, that is an oath from God )


"I tell you the truth, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death.”

"whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?”

"But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven;"


‘they may be ever seeing but never perceiving, and ever hearing but never understanding; otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!’ "


“I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven."


"Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away."


“I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty."


"whoever comes to me I will never drive away."


“Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame.”


"But what does the Scripture say? “Get rid of the slave woman and her son, for the slave woman’s son will never share in the inheritance with the free woman’s son.”

"always learning but never able to acknowledge the truth."
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Old 01-18-2011, 07:22 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,825 posts, read 9,848,697 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilene Wright View Post
No I completely agree with this Legoman, I just don't know how to put it as eloquently as you do! Thanks, I see what you are saying and understand. You're so right, there are many out there who are doing "works' in the name of Jesus but they do not believe He is the Savior of the world. Many many, many.

“Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it."
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Old 01-18-2011, 07:27 PM
 
Location: SC Foothills
8,830 posts, read 9,773,260 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
“Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it."
We're not talking about the same thing here TS, Legoman and I were referring to those who are deceived by the lie of ET, and we don't view this scripture the same way you do. Everyone will receive life.
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Old 01-18-2011, 07:32 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,825 posts, read 9,848,697 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilene Wright View Post
We're not talking about the same thing here TS, Legoman and I were referring to those who are deceived by the lie of ET, and we don't view this scripture the same way you do. Everyone will receive life.
Entering the kingdom of heaven..... God made an oath

So I declared on oath in my anger, ‘They shall never enter my rest.’ ”

And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest if not to those who disobeyed ?

Now we who have believed enter that rest, just as God has said, “So I declared on oath in my anger, ‘They shall never enter my rest.’ ”

those who are deceived deny God made the oath in his anger ‘They shall never enter my rest.’ ”

\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\

“Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it."
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