U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 01-19-2011, 11:59 AM
 
17,968 posts, read 12,425,536 times
Reputation: 989

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
Yes, WAS being the key word. He is not there anymore. Abraham and the other believers were on the good side of Hades, also known as "The Paradise".
So each tomb has a river flowing through it, a great gulf, fire and a good and bad side in each tomb?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 01-19-2011, 12:45 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,822 posts, read 9,808,279 times
Reputation: 1300
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
Yes, it happens right away, although the good and bad obviously have differnet destinations. When Stehpen, the brother of Jesus was being stoned to death, he said "Lord, receive the spirit of your servant". Also, Paul said several times that it would be better to die and be with the Lord. Jesus, on the cross, told the repentant criminal on the other cross, that today they would in in paradise together. TODAY. So, there is no doubt that believers will be with the Lord as soon as we die. Likewise, when unbelievers die, they will be in Hades the same day, as evidenced with the Rich Man and Lazarus story.

Hebrews 9:27
Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,


There are no other scenerios. While alive, people know their eternal fate.
God's Word doesn't leave you guessing http://http.cdnlayer.com/cf/images/smilies/onion/mmh.gif (broken link)
God doesn't put you in a corner to figure things out http://http.cdnlayer.com/cf/images/smilies/onion/sad.gif (broken link)

Hallelujah!! http://http.cdnlayer.com/cf/images/smilies/onion/hoho.gif (broken link)we know now....
John 3:18
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son

John 1:12
Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—

Acts 10:43
All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”

Romans 3:22
This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe

\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ conversely /////////////////////

2 Thessalonians 2:12
all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness. http://http.cdnlayer.com/cf/images/smilies/onion/dead.gif (broken link)

http://http.cdnlayer.com/cf/images/smilies/onion/ill.gif (broken link) Titus 1:15
but to those who are corrupted and do not believe, nothing is pure. In fact, both their minds and consciences are corrupted.

Last edited by twin.spin; 01-19-2011 at 01:08 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-19-2011, 01:15 PM
 
957 posts, read 715,435 times
Reputation: 392
Quote:
* = unless you are lazarus or a person that rose out of his/her grave after the crucifixion, then you die twice.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-19-2011, 01:26 PM
 
17,968 posts, read 12,425,536 times
Reputation: 989
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post

Hebrews 9:27
Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,

There are no other scenerios. While alive, people know their eternal fate.
God's Word doesn't leave you guessing
And what about the second death?

Hebrews 9:27 is about the law in which when the high priest died then the person in the city of refuge was to be judged.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-19-2011, 01:36 PM
 
Location: Miami, FL
58,451 posts, read 31,853,456 times
Reputation: 9399
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
And what about the second death?
It is for those who rejected eternal life.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-19-2011, 01:41 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,822 posts, read 9,808,279 times
Reputation: 1300
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zero 7 View Post

* = unless you are lazarus or a person that rose out of his/her grave after the crucifixion, then you die twice.
The second death is the finality of unbelief, which is determined at physical death
"He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; and whoever lives and believes in me will never die"
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-19-2011, 02:34 PM
 
17,968 posts, read 12,425,536 times
Reputation: 989
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius
And what about the second death?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
It is for those who rejected eternal life.
Fine and dandy, but you guys misquote Hebrews 9:27 and make people think they die once and are judged and that's that.

Where in the Bible does it say people go to the second death because they "rejected eternal life"?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-19-2011, 03:54 PM
 
1,838 posts, read 1,930,857 times
Reputation: 179
well the reason for this thread was more to do with ,why does God put people here that are going to suffer more than others,alot more in some cases,and obviously he knwe this was goin to happen,after all He is the supreme controller,i dont beleive in coincidences everything happens for a reason so heres my take on it.and ill keep it in simple terms.

this is probly not in the bible,however their could be some hints of this in their somewhere!!!!

THE SOUL-what is it and where is it,well from ive been thought is that the soul is the living entity,it is the life force itself,it is YOU,and it is not made of matter but pure spiritual energy,infact it is made of the same substance that god Himself and everything in the spiritual universe is made of.

in this world ,a temporary manifestation of material energy,matter and spirit c0-exists,matter is an inferior energy while spirit is the superior energy,this body i have is made of both a gross material enregy and the subtle energys,and the soul is the source of consioussness within the body,without the soul,the body ceases to exist but the soul which is an eternal enrgy(eternal ,meaning no beginning/no end)will not cease to be after the body dies.the soul can exist without the body,the body cant exist without the soul.i am a soul with a body and not a body with a soul.

this soul does not originate from matter nor even the material universe,its origians come from a world beyond the material sky,it is eternal,indistuctable,transcendental and in its original state it is eternally full of bliss and knowledge,and is part and parcel of the Supreme Father Himself.just like a fire and a spark that emanates from the fire are the same in quality,but not quantity,we too in our original state of being are equal in quality ,but not quantity as God.the same transcendental pure ecstacy that He is/feels,we too feel,just in smaller portions,we are the parts while he is whole,we are localised while he in essence is everything in existence,although He is aloof from matter and its effects.He is never effected bye material nature,even when He incarnates on the material platform.

so here we are,living out eternity,then one day bye missusing our free will we entered the material temporary universeits said that God is the Supreme enjoyer and we anted to be like him,we wanted to be the enjoyer thus giving up our service we enter into the highest material planets(the heavenly planets)and when we first enter these planets we do not have gross material bodys but rather bodys made of the subtle energy's-mind/intelligence/ego.since we dont and had never known sin,we are pure beings but from there on in we start enjoying the temporary pleasures of material nature,thus we start desiring these pleasures thus causing karma thus causing reincarnation.we then start to fall down in consioussness as our desires for material gratification become stronger and start falling down the evolutionary stages of existence,then after millions if not billions of lifetimes working our ay up through consioussness after being demoterd to a single celled organism we get the human form of life,where we can inquire about God consioussness and start working our way back up/not with works,with devotion!!!!!!!

these bodys are the gateways to the eternal spiritual dimension,on the heavenly planets,their is too much pleasure to cultivate a steady spiritual life,on the hellish planets their is too much pain,but right here on the earthly planets/this is only one of them,the balance is just right.

every-one gets what they deserve,if not better than what they deserve,and i dont think God would put someone into a position unless they didnt deserve it,all pain and pleasure on the material plane are temporary and in time everyone learns what they really are ,that we are not bodys butn souls,and in time we all return to that magical place where we came from.

someone once said to me...but how can you say that a child in africa deserved to be starving..????and its a tough question,if you dont beleive in god then its just all random,if you do then why is he letting this happen???if theirs only 1 life then what could they have done to deserve it?//so the only way i could explain it as this...imagine a man right hee right now,a billionare who had all the money in the world,could have fed all the kids in africa,could have helped many a people in their struggles,but he decides to be a miser and only look after himself,now just to teach him a lesson he might have to spend a lifetime in africa starving to understand something,or a man murders another man and gets away it in this lifetime,the amount of pain,emotional and physical,but probly more emotional pain that he causes to that person and their loved ones,that pain will not go un-judged and he might have to face every bit a pain that he caused ''what you reap,so shall you sow''-karma.but that dosent mean that e show commpassion to those who are less fortunate,nor help those who we can''treat those as you would like to be'',''love thy enemy''.

bottom line is we are all experiencing the results of our past lives,when we die we can look back at some of these lives and see how we are progressing through life,we were once filled with ecstatic bliss and knowledge,it is eternal,it is their lying dorment in our very hearts,only our minds and desires are blocking the way,and God consioussness and self realisation through devotion is the key to awaking our spiritual identitys,,,,looking forard to seeing yas all in the spiritual dimension,hope i remember yas.

when we do finnaly get back home,back to godhead,it will be like waking up from a dream,weve always been there but weve been dreaming,and like waking up fronm sleeping you look around and say what was that,you start getting on with your life and the dream fades,once we get back we never have to return to the platform of misery.

sorry for the long post,i dont usually make them this long.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-19-2011, 04:30 PM
 
20,291 posts, read 15,633,754 times
Reputation: 7403
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
Neither Jesus not the thief on the other cross were in paradise the day they died.

Jesus said "I say to you today, with Me you will be in paradise." Notice where the comma is. Paradise is in the future coming kingdom Jesus is going to set up on the earth.
There is no comma. There is no punctuation in the Greek. See it here in the Greek Luke 23:43 Biblos Interlinear Bible Both Jesus and the thief went to Paradise the moment they died.

Eph 4:8 Therefore it says, ''When He ascended on High, He led captive a host of captives, and He gave gifts to men.'' 9] (Now this expression, ''He ascended,'' what does it mean except that He also had descended into the lower parts of the earth?'' 10] He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.)

The tomb in which His body lay, and which was above ground, was not the lower parts of the earth. Just as Jesus had descended to the lower parts of the earth (Hades - the Paradise side), so afterwards He ascended far above all the heavens to the throne room of God.


Quote:
As for Stephen, the bible says when any human dies the spirit returns to God Who gave it. So you can't say they automatically go to heaven. The Bible says God is everywhere so when our spirit returns to God it goes right outside our body and right then and there is with God.
To the contrary. Just as before the resurrection and ascension of Jesus Christ, Paradise was located in Hades, now Paradise is located in the third heaven. The very throne room of God. In 2 Cor 12:1-6, Pauls speaks of his revelation of heaven.

2 Cor 12:1 'Boasting is necessary, though it is not profitable; but I will go on to visions and revelations of the Lord. 2] I know a man (Paul speaking of himself) in Christ who fourteen years ago--in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know, God knows--such a man was caught up to the third heaven. 3] And I know how such a man--whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, God knows-- 4]was caught up into Paradise, and heard inexpressible words, which a man is not permitted to speak. 5] On behalf of such a man I will boast; but on my own behalf I will not boast, except in regard to my weaknesses. 6] For if I do wish to boast I shall not be foolish, for I shall be speaking the truth; but I refrain from this, so that no on may credit me with more than he sees in me or hears from me.

7] And because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations, for this reason, to keep me from exalting myself, there was given me a thron in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to buffet me--to keep me from exalting myself.

Now it is possible that this had occurred when Paul had been stoned as recorded in Acts 14:19. Paul may have actually died momentarily and his soul and spirit went to heaven. Regardless, Paul had seen the throne room of God, the third heaven.

In Revelation 7:9-10 and 20:4 John in his vision of heaven sees the souls of tribulational martyrs, (this is before they are resurrected) in heaven.

Quote:
As for Paul, he did not say sudden death sudden glory. Paul always looked forward to meeting the Lord via resurrection of the dead.
Although in 2 Cor 5:1-8 there is reference to the resurrection, in verses 8-9, Paul is speaking of dying and entering into the presence of God.

2 Cor 5:8 'We are of good courage I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord. 9] Therefore also we have as our ambition, whether at home (in the body) or absent (from the body) to be pleasing to Him.' And then in verse 10 Paul makes a reference to the judgment seat of Christ which does take place after the rapture or resurrection of the church. But in verses 8 and 9, Paul is referring to departing from the body and being at home with the Lord.

In Phil 1:21-26 Paul states (not that he was considering suicide, he wasn't) that he is hard-pressed between living on in the flesh for the sake of those to whom he has been teachiing, or to depart from the flesh and go to be with the Lord. Paul was not saying that he wanted to lie dead in the grave awaiting the resurrection when he realized the importance of remaining alive for the sake of those he would be leaving behind at his death. Paul concluded that for the sake of those to whom he had been teaching it was better that he remain.

Paul said to live is Christ and to die is gain. There is no gain to lying dead in a grave. But there is gain in departing from this life and going home to be with the Lord.

At the moment of physical death, all believers go into the presence of the Lord and their bodies await resurrection at the return of Christ.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-19-2011, 04:42 PM
 
20,291 posts, read 15,633,754 times
Reputation: 7403
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
Abraham's bosum and paradise were the same thing, but if a believer died today, he/she would not go there, but directly to be with the Lord. After Jesus died, he went to Abraham's bosum and led the believers out of there and to heaven. So, as of that day, believers go to heaven and unbelievers go to Hades. During the rapture the spirit and the body will be reunited.
Exactly. As Paul stated in 2 Corthinians 12:1-6, Paradise (verse 4) is now located in the third heaven (verse 2) which is the throne room of God. At physical death the soul and human spirit of the believer go into the presence of the Lord and the body awaits resurrection at the rapture of the church.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2018, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top