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Old 01-20-2011, 03:22 PM
 
Location: Somewhere
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katie45 View Post
If we choose to blasphemy the Holy Spirit ... that was the last chance to accept/believe in God/Jesus/Holy Spirit.

God gives us three chances: He will forgive if we blasphemy Him; He then gives us a second chance with His son Jesus Christ; if we blasphemy Jesus there is one final opportunity: the Holy Spirit. If one rejects/blasphemies the Holy Spirit, it is spoken by Jesus that that was the last straw...the unforgivable sin.

You believe what you choose to believe....He gave us Free Will.

I choose to believe the Word of God.

Blessings.
Not so. The Word of God says that Love covers ALL sins. If you know of a sin that Love can't cover then what led you to that belief contradicts God's Word:

Pro 10:12 Hatred stirreth up strifes: but love covereth all sins.
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Old 01-20-2011, 04:38 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katie45 View Post
Mark 3:28-29 (New International Version, ©2010)

28 Truly I tell you, people can be forgiven all their sins and every slander they utter, 29 but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; they are guilty of an eternal sin.”
That is a very bad translation of the original Greek.

Here is the interlinear ...

Quote:
"amhn legw umin oti panta afeqhsetai ta amarthmata tois uiois twn anqrwpwn kai blasfhmiai osas an blasfhmhswsin os d an blasfhmhsh eis to pneuma toagion ouk ecei afesin eis ton aiwna all enocos estin aiwniou krisews"


"verily I-am-saying to-ye that all shall-be-being-pardoned the penalties-of-the-sins the sons of the humans and blasphemies as much as ever they-should-be-blaspheming. Who yet ever should-be-blaspheming into the spirit the holy not is having pardon unto the eon but liable is of eonian judging."
Notice the differences between a completely literal translation and the one you quoted?

The version you quoted translates the Greek word "ouk" as "never". The greek word "ouk" is a negative particle, the English word "never" is an adverb. The proper translation of the Greek negative particle "ouk" is the English negative particle "not".

Also, the version you quoted does not even translate the phrase "eis ton aiona" or "unto the age". And it also mistranslates the Greek phrase "aiwniou krisews" which literally means "judgment of the age(s)" or "eionian judment", as "eternal sin".

In other words, the proper translation of the passage you quoted is closer to the Young's literal translation ...

Quote:
"Verily I say to you, that all the sins shall be forgiven to the sons of men, and evil speakings with which they might speak evil, but whoever may speak evil in regard to the Holy Spirit hath not forgiveness -- to the age, but is in danger of age-during judgment"
You should learn to study the scriptures in the languages they were originally written in. You don't necessarily have to learn Greek and Hebrew, but having a literal concordance and various literal interlinear translations at your disposal makes things allot clearer.

Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 01-20-2011 at 04:50 PM..
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Old 01-20-2011, 05:17 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jghorton View Post
Unforgiven sin is the rejection of the grace, forgiveness, salvation and eternal life God offers through Christ during this lifetime. A person who dies in that condition, continues-on in the separation from God that they have chosen... for eternity.

All owe their very life (creation) to God ... who also offers forgiveness, eternal life (Spiritual) and relationship with Himself through Christ to all! Just as many seek to avoid earthly consequences for their choices, many seem to think they can avoid heavenly consequences/wages ... as evidenced by the excessive (baseless) perception in CD forums, that 'a loving God really wouldn't allow hell (or wages/consequences) to exist'. -- What a foolishly unnecessary choice!
Quote:
Originally Posted by trettep View Post
That just is not scriptural. Again, if that were true then Jesus only came to save the least of sinners.
Also, the blasphemy of the holy spirit is not rejection of Christ, or of the gospel message. Blasphemy of the holy spirit is when one sees the holy spirit in action and calls it the power of the devil.

That is what the Pharisees said when Jesus cast out the demon, "he casts out the devil be the power of the devil".

Why do people always try to read more into it than what is clearly written in the scriptures?

Did the Samaritans commit blasphemy of the holy spirit when they rejected Christ? Of course not ...
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Old 01-20-2011, 05:27 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Katie45 you are correct. Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit which could only be committed while Jesus Christ was on the earth (because it had to do with accusing Jesus of performing His miracles by means of Satan) was tantamount to unbelief in Christ. Unbelief itself of course is always possible, and if a person dies never having believed in Jesus, then that sin cannot be forgiven.

What those who would tell you that the Greek word aionios can't be used for eternal things fail to recognize is that the Greek word aionios and related words, are certainly used both in and out of the Bible for things of an eternal nature. The words used in the following verses are aionian, aioniou and aionion.

Hebrews 9:12 Speaking of Jesus and the eternal redemption He obtained. 'and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal (aionian) redemption. Jesus didn't obtain for us some temporary age-lasting redemption. He obtained eternal redemption. A redemption that is final and will never come to an end.

Heb 9:14 regarding the Holy Spirit. ...'how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal (aioniou) Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from good works to serve the living God? No sensible person would think that the passage is referring to an age-lasting Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is God and is eternal.

In Heb 5:9 we see that the believers salvation is eternal. 'And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey (believe) Him the source of eternal (aioniou) salvation,

Compare Heb 5:9 with 1 John 5:11 'And the witness is this, that God has given us eternal (aionion) life, and this life is in His Son. 12] He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. 13] These things are written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, in order that you may know that you have eternal (aionion ) life.

Jesus Christ who is God and is eternal, and who is also in His humanity in a resurrected immortal body does not have some temporary age-during life, He has nothing less than eternal life. The same eternal life that is given to those who believe in Him.

As for the use of aion and aionios outside of the Bible, simply refer to Philo.

Excerpt:
126 As to Philo, the sentence is in De Mundo, 7, en aioni de oute pareleluthen ouden, oute mellei, alla monon iphesteken. Such a definition needs no explanation: in eternity nothing is passed, nothing is about to be, but only subsists. This has the importance of being of the date and Hellenistic Greek of the New Testament, as the others give the regular, and at the same time philosophical force of the word, aion, aionios.
On the Greek words for Eternity and Eternal

So Katie45, don't ever let anyone tell you that the translators of the New Testament were a bunch of dumb bunnies who collectively could not figure out how to properly translate the Greek word Aion and its derivatives. The word can mean an indefinite period but not endless, or it can mean an indefinite period because endless. It depends on the context.

Darby is in denial of the facts as they exist, and can be shown to exist in the scriptures, especially in the Greek translation of the old testament, the Septuagint.

He writes ...

Quote:
Aion in Greek properly means "eternity."
This quite simply is a fabrication. The Greek noun "aion" does not and cannot mean eternity of itself. The simple fact that it has a plural form proves this alone, without even having to show its usage in the Greek classics and by the poets.
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Old 01-20-2011, 06:08 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katie45 View Post
Mark 3:28-29 (New International Version, ©2010)

28 Truly I tell you, people can be forgiven all their sins and every slander they utter, 29 but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; they are guilty of an eternal sin.”

That correct Katie,

Gos made an oath to himself that they will not enter. Hebrews 4:3

"Never means never"
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Old 01-20-2011, 06:36 PM
 
20,299 posts, read 15,647,071 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
Darby is in denial of the facts as they exist, and can be shown to exist in the scriptures, especially in the Greek translation of the old testament, the Septuagint.

He writes ...



This quite simply is a fabrication. The Greek noun "aion" does not and cannot mean eternity of itself. The simple fact that it has a plural form proves this alone, without even having to show its usage in the Greek classics and by the poets.
I am certain that Philo knew his own language far, far better than you. Simply read what he wrote.

As for the use of aion and aionios outside of the Bible, simply refer to Philo.

Excerpt:
126 As to Philo, the sentence is in De Mundo, 7, en aioni de oute pareleluthen ouden, oute mellei, alla monon iphesteken. Such a definition needs no explanation: in eternity nothing is passed, nothing is about to be, but only subsists. This has the importance of being of the date and Hellenistic Greek of the New Testament, as the others give the regular, and at the same time philosophical force of the word, aion, aionios. [Emphasis mine]
On the Greek words for Eternity and Eternal

See also the following site.

Question & Answer 88 - Eternal punishment

That aion was used to refer to eternity outside of the Bible at the time the New Testament was being written is proven by Philo. And leading Greek experts and lexicographers understand that it was used for eternity.


Readers can refer back to post #10 and view the scriptures I used to show that words derived from aion are used for eternal things.

Aiona or aion which is used in Mark 3:29 is in fact singular in form. That can be seen at this online Interlinear Bible. Mark 3:29 Biblos Interlinear Bible Simply move the cursor over the letters and numbers above the words.

Those who are interested can go to the following site, about the 6th paragraph down to see how aion has been defined by Thayer, and by Danker, Arndt and Gingrich.
Apologetics Press - The Eternality of Hell [Part I]

I've said what I have to say. People can easily do their own research on the meaning of the word.
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Old 01-20-2011, 10:39 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,199,823 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
I am certain that Philo knew his own language far, far better than you. Simply read what he wrote.

As for the use of aion and aionios outside of the Bible, simply refer to Philo.

Excerpt:
126 As to Philo, the sentence is in De Mundo, 7, en aioni de oute pareleluthen ouden, oute mellei, alla monon iphesteken. Such a definition needs no explanation: in eternity nothing is passed, nothing is about to be, but only subsists. This has the importance of being of the date and Hellenistic Greek of the New Testament, as the others give the regular, and at the same time philosophical force of the word, aion, aionios. [Emphasis mine]
On the Greek words for Eternity and Eternal

See also the following site.

Question & Answer 88 - Eternal punishment

That aion was used to refer to eternity outside of the Bible at the time the New Testament was being written is proven by Philo. And leading Greek experts and lexicographers understand that it was used for eternity.


Readers can refer back to post #10 and view the scriptures I used to show that words derived from aion are used for eternal things.

Aiona or aion which is used in Mark 3:29 is in fact singular in form. That can be seen at this online Interlinear Bible. Mark 3:29 Biblos Interlinear Bible Simply move the cursor over the letters and numbers above the words.

Those who are interested can go to the following site, about the 6th paragraph down to see how aion has been defined by Thayer, and by Danker, Arndt and Gingrich.
Apologetics Press - The Eternality of Hell [Part I]

I've said what I have to say. People can easily do their own research on the meaning of the word.

Concerning Philo and his use of the word aion ... In 1999 Dr. Heleen M. Keizer published her Ph.D. dissertation in book form, Life, Time, Entirety: A Study of ΑΙΩΝ in Greek Literature and Philosophy and Philo (Universiteit van Amsterdam, 1999).

Quote:
... Dr. Heleen M. Keizer did her Phd. dissertation on aion and aionios in Philo and the early Greek writers as well as the early church fathers and the New Testament and found:

"In the non-biblical usage, Dr. Keizer notes three distinct meanings of aion: (1) "life," (2) "time," and (3) "entirety," or a wholeness or completeness or a totality relating to a function of time. (Hence the title of her study.) She notes that the biblical aion is a creation of God (having no divinity, as pagan philosophy put forth). Her study found that neither Philo, nor later Church Fathers use aion to refer to the eternity of God. 2 Dr. Keizer pointed out some conclusions regarding the usage and meaning of aion in the New Testament: 3"

You can read about it here:
ASK Newsletter - January 2005


From: post #342 Aionios: Let's clear the water (http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/discussions_universal_salvation/aionios_lets_clear_water_4738.325.html - broken link)
And below is further evidence from Greek professors concerning the true meaning of "Aion" and its adjective form ...

Quote:
Dr. R.F. Weymouth, a translator who was adept in Greek, states in The New Testament in Modern Speech (p. 657), "Eternal, Greek aeonian, i.e., of the ages: Etymologically this adjective, like others similarly formed does not signify, "during" but "belonging to" the aeons or ages."

Dr. Marvin Vincent, in his Word Studies of the New Testament (vol. IV, p. 59): "The adjective aionios in like manner carries the idea of time. Neither the noun nor the adjective in themselves carries the sense of "endless" or "everlasting." Aionios means enduring through or pertaining to a period of time. Out of the 150 instances in the LXX (Septuagint), four-fifths imply limited duration."

Dr. F.W. Farrar, author of The Life of Christ and The Life and Work of St. Paul, as well as books about Greek grammar and syntax, writes in The Eternal Hope (p. 198 ) , "That the adjective is applied to some things which are "endless" does not, of course, for one moment prove that the word itself meant 'endless;' and to introduce this rendering into many passages would be utterly impossible and absurd." In his book, Mercy and Judgment, Dr. Farrar states (p. 378 ) , "Since aion meant 'age,' aionios means, properly, 'belonging to an age,' or 'age-long,' and anyone who asserts that it must mean 'endless' defends a position which even Augustine practically abandoned twelve centuries ago. Even if aion always meant 'eternity,' which is not the case in classic or Hellenistic Greek-aionios could still mean only 'belonging to eternity' and not 'lasting through it.'"

Lange's Commentary American Edition (vol. V, p. 48 ) , on Ecclesiastes chapter 1 verse 4, in commenting upon the statement "The earth abideth forever" says, "The preacher, in contending with the universalist, or restorationist, would commit an error, and, it may be, suffer a failure in his argument, should he lay the whole stress of it on the etymological or historical significance of the words, aion, aionios, and attempt to prove that, of themselves, they necessarily carry the meaning of endless duration." On page 45 of the same work, Dr. Taylor Lewis says: "The Greek aiones and aiones ton aionon, the Latin secula, and secula seculorum, the Old Saxon, or Old English of Wicliffe, to worldis or worldis (Heb. XIII 21), or our more modern phrase, for ever and ever, wherever the German ewig, was originally a noun denoting age or a vast period, just like the Greek, Latin, and Hebrew words corresponding to it."

The Rev. Bennet, in his Olam Hanneshamoth (p. 44), says, "The primary nature of olam is 'hidden,' and both as to past and future denotes a duration that is unknown." Olam is the Hebrew word for the Greek aion.

The Parkhurst Lexicon: "Olam (aeon) seems to be used much more for an indefinite than for an infinite time."

Dr. MacKnight: "I must be so candid as to acknowledge that the use of these terms 'forever,' 'eternal,' 'everlasting,' shows that they who understand these words in a limited sense when applied to punishment put no forced interpretation upon them."


The Interpreter's Dictionary of the Bible, vol. 4, p. 643, says, "The O.T. and the N.T. are not acquainted with conception of eternity as timelessness." Page 644: "The O.T. has not developed a special term for eternity." Page 645: "The use of the word aion in the N.T. is determined very much by the O.T. and the LXX. Aion means long, distant, uninterrupted time. The intensifying plural occurs frequently in the N.T. ...but it adds no new meaning."

Dr. Lammenois, a man adept with languages, states, "In Hebrew and Greek the words rendered 'everlasting' have not this sense. They signify a long duration of time, a period; whence the phrase, during these eternities and beyond."
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Old 01-20-2011, 11:19 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
Concerning Philo and his use of the word aion ... In 1999 Dr. Heleen M. Keizer published her Ph.D. dissertation in book form, Life, Time, Entirety: A Study of ΑΙΩΝ in Greek Literature and Philosophy and Philo (Universiteit van Amsterdam, 1999).



And below is further evidence from Greek professors concerning the true meaning of "Aion" and its adjective form ...
Philo used the word aion for eternity. Whether or not he had God in mind is not the point. The point is that he used the word aion for eternity.


Excerpt:
126 As to Philo, the sentence is in De Mundo, 7, en aioni de oute pareleluthen ouden, oute mellei, alla monon iphesteken. Such a definition needs no explanation: in eternity nothing is passed, nothing is about to be, but only subsists. This has the importance of being of the date and Hellenistic Greek of the New Testament, as the others give the regular, and at the same time philosophical force of the word, aion, aionios. [Emphasis mine]
On the Greek words for Eternity and Eternal

In the Bible Aionios is used for things eternal. For God, for eternal life, for God's glory, for eternal punishment, etc...

Simply refer back to post #10 and read the passages which I have supplied. Readers may also refer back to post #16.
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Old 01-20-2011, 11:44 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Philo used the word aion for eternity. Whether or not he had God in mind is not the point. The point is that he used the word aion for eternity.


Excerpt:
126 As to Philo, the sentence is in De Mundo, 7, en aioni de oute pareleluthen ouden, oute mellei, alla monon iphesteken. Such a definition needs no explanation: in eternity nothing is passed, nothing is about to be, but only subsists. This has the importance of being of the date and Hellenistic Greek of the New Testament, as the others give the regular, and at the same time philosophical force of the word, aion, aionios. [Emphasis mine]
On the Greek words for Eternity and Eternal

In the Bible Aionios is used for things eternal. For God, for eternal life, for God's glory, for eternal punishment, etc...

Simply refer back to post #10 and read the passages which I have supplied. Readers may also refer back to post #16.

You can believe your theologian, and ill believe the words of the doctors which i quoted above.

Quote:
... Dr. Heleen M. Keizer did her Phd. dissertation on aion and aionios in Philo and the early Greek writers as well as the early church fathers and the New Testament and found:

"In the non-biblical usage, Dr. Keizer notes three distinct meanings of aion: (1) "life," (2) "time," and (3) "entirety," or a wholeness or completeness or a totality relating to a function of time. (Hence the title of her study.) She notes that the biblical aion is a creation of God (having no divinity, as pagan philosophy put forth). Her study found that neither Philo, nor later Church Fathers use aion to refer to the eternity of God. 2 Dr. Keizer pointed out some conclusions regarding the usage and meaning of aion in the New Testament: 3"

You can read about it here:
ASK Newsletter - January 2005
Also, below is still further evidence of the fact that "aion" and its adjective forms do not mean eternal or everlasting.

Quote:
“As explained in Marvin R. Vincent’s, Word Studies in the New Testament, vol. 4 (Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, [1864]), pp. 58-59 (underline emphasis mine DWS):

“Aιών, transliterated aeon, is a period of time of longer or shorter duration, having a beginning and an end, and complete in itself. Aristotle (περι οuρανοu, 1:9, 15) says: ‘The period which includes the whole time of each one’s life is called the aeon of each one.’ Hence it often means the life of a man, as in Homer, where one’s life (αιών) is said to leave him or to consume away (Il. v. 685; Od. v. 160). It is not, however, limited to human life; it signifies any period in the course of events, as the period or age before Christ; the period of the millennium; the mythological period before the beginnings of history. The word has not ‘a stationary and mechanical value’(De Quincey). It does not mean a period of a fixed length for all cases. There are as many aeons as entities, the respective durations of which are fixed by the normal conditions of the several entities. There is one aeon of a human life, another of the life of a nation, another of a crow’s life, another of an oak’s life. The length of the aeon depends on the subject to which it is attached. ... The word always carries the notion of time, and not of eternity. It always means a period of time. Otherwise it would be impossible to account for the plural, or for such qualifying expressions as this age, or the age to come. It does not mean something endless or everlasting.”
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Old 01-20-2011, 11:57 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trettep View Post
It isn't eternal. That is a misunderstanding of the word aionios that is interpreted as "eternal". If a sin can be eternal then it means that ALL sins were NEVER nailed to the Cross and that Jesus only came to save the least of sinners.
well-said
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