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Old 01-21-2011, 08:44 PM
 
Location: Florida
5,261 posts, read 6,263,841 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HotinAZ View Post
You know, I have really been praying about this topic since Verna and I went round and round some time ago.

The Spirit was leading me, and I wasn't listening, at that time.

Since then though, and especially now, I am moved to respond in a way that will be clear to all. Perhaps you may 'hear', perhaps not.

The Ten Commandments are not meant to 'obey'. Do you all understand this? You CANNOT 'obey' them, no more can you 'obey' a rock that they were written on. So please, stop using the word 'obey'.

They are the LAWS of God. They are, and ALWAYS will be, His written guidelines(commands) for humanity to live in His Harmony. With Him, and with each other.

We cannot 'keep' the Law, and when I say Law, it is ONLY the 10 commands, written on stone, placed in the Ark. Why can't we 'keep' it? Because we were NEVER meant to. EVER!



Now, what can we do then? Nothing! There is NOTHING you can do to try and 'keep' that which cannot be kept. How can I say this? Because Jesus has explained it, and I SEE it. I am not going to post the NUMEROUS verses having Him explain this to the Pharisees, because the Pharisees could not 'see' it either. Read it yourself, and ask the Spirit for guidance.

Now settle down Verna, I will explain.

We ARE called to HONOR the Law out of love. The love we have for our Father, and the love we have for one another. This is why the Law hangs on THIS important Law. The Law of Love. AS far as the 10 Commandments go? We cannot ever obey it, but we honor it. Hopefully this makes sense. Even the rich man who 'kept' the Law never actually honored it. This is why he could not go the extra mile, out of love.

So, back to the Sabbath. We are called to honor it, out of our love for the Father. The Father also knows when we have to feed our families, if called to work, and He also knows our hearts. This is why Jesus allowed His disciples to pick and eat grain on the Sabbath. They did not dishonor the Father, because their hearts were right with the Father.

So, you ALL are right in the fact that for some, they honor the Sabbath, while others see no need to 'OBEY' ANY LAWS.

The REAL question is?

Is YOUR heart right with God, His Son, and your fellow brothers and sisters? If it is, then there is no other explanation need, nor warranted.

With Love,,

Tony
Dear Tony,

What did God mean when He said this...

"If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love." John 15:10.

...and this...

"If you love me, you will obey what I command." John 14:15.

...and this...

"Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him." John 14:21.

...and this...

"We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commandments." 1 John 2:3.

...and this...

"Whoever claims to live in Him must walk as Jesus did." 1 John 2:6...Jesus kept the Sabbath holy...Jesus kept the commandments...are we not to be like Jesus...?...What kind of God would require something of us that He knew we could not do...? He wouldn't...and we CAN keep them...if we choose to. I do....as many, many, many others do as well. You could too...if you wanted to.


Love you too...
Verna.
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Old 01-22-2011, 07:52 AM
 
488 posts, read 876,516 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Verna Perry View Post
Hello doesntspringtomind,

There was never a changing of the Seventh Day (Saturday) Sabbath as far as God's holy Word is concerned. Jesus kept it...Paul kept it...Peter kept it...Luke kept it...Matthew kept it...Mark kept it...John kept it...Timothy kept it...Silus kept it...Titus kept it...they all taught in the Synagogues on the Sabbath...true Jewish people kept, and still do!, to this day, keep the Seventh Day (Saturday) holy unto God. "Spiritual Israel"...(those who aren't born a Jew...a Gentile by birth), walk in the will of the LORD God..His beloved...keep the Fourth Commandment of God too...this is the Seal of God upon those who do...and always will be.

This is what is being spoken of in Scripture when it speaks of man following the "traditions" of man...if one does not keep the Seventh Day (Saturday) Sabbath holy unto God, they transgress the law...which is the Ten Commandments..and we know from Scripture...that sin is the transgression of God's law. If you know this (and now you do if you didn't before) and you continue to not honor God on His Day...and you do not take it upon yourself to search diligently and earnestly the Scripture for this truth...you will never walk in the "Knowledge of The Truth." I can provide Scripture for all of this if you would like me to...just let me know.

"It was the Catholic church which by the authority of Jesus Christ has transferred this rest to Sunday in remembrance of the resurrection of our Lord. Thus the observance of Sunday by the Protestants is an homage they pay in spite of themselves, to the authority of the (Catholic) church."
Catholic Press, Australia, August 25,1900

The legal change from the seventh day (Saturday) to the first day (Sunday) did not occur until AD321 --over two hundred and eighty years after the death of Christ. It was a proclamation of the Roman emperor Constantine which declared:

"On the Venerable day of the SUN let the magistrates and people residing in cities rest, and let all workshops be closed. In the country, however, persons engaged in agriculture may freely and lawfully continue their pursuits; because it often happens that another day is not so suitable for grain-sowing or for vine-planting; lest by neglecting the proper moment for such operations the bounty of heaven should be lost. Given the seventh day of March [AD 321] Crispus and Constantine being consuls each of them for the second time."

- The First Sunday Law of Constantine 1, in "Codex Justinianus" translated in Phillip Schaff, History of the Christian Church, Vol 3 p.380.

Historical records show that Constantine was trying to unite the Mithra (Sun God) worshipping pagans and his new found friends, the Christians. Those who honor SUNday unknowingly honor the God of the Sun, not the God of creation who said:

"THE SEVENTH DAY IS THE SABBATH OF THE LORD THY GOD". Exodus 20:8-17

Where in the Scriptures did God change it to the first (Sunday) day?



"And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, WHICH KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD, AND HAVE THE TESTIMONY OF JESUS CHRIST." Rev 12:17 (KJV)



It is not wrong to gather on Sunday to fellowship as well...but you must honor the LORD's Day. If you do fellowship on Sunday with those who do not believe in this...after realizing that it is indeed Saturday that is the Sabbath...you will find in time, that little by little, you realize that you cannot easily fellowship with un-believer's...they will begin to attack your beliefs...and call you a liar...and a trouble maker..then you will have to leave...I know. I tried.

God Bless you in your searching and finding Truth...

In Christ's love,
Verna.
Verna, Thank you so much for your explanation. I was indeed confused as I've recently heard at least three variations.

1. The Sabbath could be any day
2. The Sabbath can only be Saturday
3. The Sabbath is Saturday for Jews and Sunday for Christians

What I feel now is that if we keep Saturday -- as the Sabbath day -- holy then we make no mistake..... Regardless of whether it is no longer "compulsory" or still is, if we do keep it holy, we make no mistake what-so-ever.

I will be asking the Holy Spirit to give me guidance and confrim the truth to me

God bless!
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Old 01-22-2011, 07:54 AM
 
3,553 posts, read 4,388,731 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Verna Perry View Post
Dear Tony,

What did God mean when He said this...

"If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love." John 15:10.
Perhaps this?

John 15:12
This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

Quote:
...and this...

"If you love me, you will obey what I command." John 14:15.
John 13:34
A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

Quote:
...and this...

"Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him." John 14:21.
Mark 12:30
And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this the FIRST commandment.

Mark 12:31
And the SECOND [is] like, [namely] this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

Quote:
...and this...

"We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commandments." 1 John 2:3.
1st John 3:23
And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

Quote:
...and this...

"Whoever claims to live in Him must walk as Jesus did." 1 John 2:6...
1st John 4:21
And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.


Quote:
Jesus kept the Sabbath holy...


Wasn't He accused of breaking it by mixing spit and mud together? Wasn't He accused of allowing His disciples to break it by picking grain and eating it. He was accused of healing a man and commanding him to pick up his pallet and walk.

Yes, Jesus kept His Love for the Father. And yes, Jesus did what the Father willed, even the things above. Jesus' heart was pure, in Love with you, AND the Father. Today, He would break a rule, to make you whole. THAT is love.

Quote:
Jesus kept the commandments...


Jesus was the ONLY One in the ENTIRE history of the WORLD to honor the Father,out of His LOVE FOR the FATHER, to completely honor and obey them all. Are you now saying you can keep that which only One man has EVER kept, by TRYING to keep them?


Quote:
are we not to be like Jesus...?...


Yes, follow His commands. I reposted them for you. If you follow His commands, then you won't have to worry about breaking a 10 commandment Law, because you will have fulfilled the Law, completely.

Romans 13:10
Love *does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

Understand?

Quote:
What kind of God would require something of us that He knew we could not do...?


So that He could bring forth His Son. You are not Jesus. Therefore, you cannot ever think to obey them, like a servant obeys a master. The Law is not your master, Jesus is.

Quote:
He wouldn't...and we CAN keep them...if we choose to.


Good luck Verna. I pray the First and Second ones have firmly transformed your heart, because if not? Then even by breaking just 1 commandment written in stone? You have broken them ALL!!!



Quote:
I do....as many, many, many others do as well.


Careful now. This is verging on haughtiness. Pride comes before the fall.

Quote:
You could too...if you wanted to.


No I couldn't. I would even TRY to. If perhaps I go without breaking ANY of the commands written on stone, it is because my heart is right with God, and my King. BUT, I do know that I break them, EVERY TIME MY WORRY ABOUT THE WORLD SURFACES, because I HAVE REMOVED GOD FROM BEING MY GOD.

"You shall have NO other gods *before Me.

Be it money or finances, employment, family, the Bible, this forum,,,ANYTHING that takes my eyes off the prize.

I don't lust after women. I don't dishonor my parents. I don't covet anything. I honor the Father on the Sabbath, and rest,from my life.

But the FIRST Commandment, is the hardest by far, since I have learned WHAT IT IS. And I break it ALL THE TIME.




Only by being GROUNDED in LOVE, then you can keep, or guard, the commands, out of your heart.



Quote:
Love you too...
Verna.
Be blessed this fine sabbath day.

Love,

Tony

PS
Did you know the sabbath actually starts at dusk on friday, and ends sat at dusk?
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Old 01-22-2011, 08:35 AM
 
Location: RV Park
7,544 posts, read 11,607,206 times
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Not the labour of my hands
Can fulfil thy law’s demands;
Could my zeal no respite know,
Could my tears for ever flow,
All for sin could not atone;
Thou must save, and thou alone.

"If ye love Me, you'll keep My commandments."

Now, let's turn that verse around and understand the cause and effect implied; His love and life within us causes us to please Him. It's not the acts that He is looking for (imo), but the dependence on Him to live the life that - obviously - He can only live that pleases Him. He is the Vine, we are the branches; without Him, we can do nothing.

Matthew 5:43-47:

Quote:
Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for He maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
This is what we're commanded to do, but is the flesh predisposed to respond thusly? Absolutely not, but He follows with the hammer:

Quote:
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. (Mat 5:48)
How then can we achieve perfection, when we're told that our righteousness is as filthy rags - that the heart is desperately wicked? Answer: by exchanging our life for His, by crucifying the flesh - as He increases in us and we decrease, His life then takes over. No more is there concern for what is right and wrong, because it is Him who does the works!

Working on the sabbath? God is always at work! We have to see God in all things!
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Old 01-22-2011, 09:06 AM
 
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HotinAZ...
Great post. I couldn't rep you.
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Old 01-22-2011, 09:20 AM
 
701 posts, read 661,211 times
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Scripture makes clear "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me", why do people persist on making statements like "the 10 commandments can't be kept"? People then have this notion that if they are "keeping" the TC then they are claiming salvation by works and denying grace. Grace/mercy cannot exist without the law. If a cop pulled you over for speeding and then said he was going to show you grace by letting you go, could he do that if their was no posted speed limit and a law that said you cold not exceed it? No, if their is no law, then you haven't done anything wrong, and if you haven't done anything wrong then you don't need to be shown any grace/mercy. Now that we have established that the law still stands, we come back to grace/mercy. What do we do once the cop has shown us grace/mercy? Do we say thanks and put our foot to the floor, peeling out while we speed off again? No, we keep to the speed limit. Will we falter again at some point in time, and maybe in another area (not yielding the right of way, or failing to come to a complete stop), we most certainly will, and grace/mercy will intervene as often as we ask Him to, but at no point in time is the law ever lessened or done away with. When pertaining to the 10 Commandments, logic finds it impossible to get past the stark reality of the following: Is it permissible, in God's eyes to willfully violate any of the other 9 commandments?

1. You shall have no other gods before me.
*- Is it any more permissible now vs. before Christ? And, how can someone willfully violate this and still "Love God with all their heart" ?

2. You shall not make for yourself any carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.
*- Is it any more permissible now vs. before Christ? And, how can someone willfully violate this and still "Love God with all their heart" ?

3. You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain.
*- Is it any more permissible now vs. before Christ? And, how can someone willfully violate this and still "Love God with all their heart" ?

4. Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your manservant, nor your maidservant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.
*- Is it any more permissible now vs. before Christ? And, how can someone willfully violate this and still "Love God with all their heart" ?

5. Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the Lord your God is giving you.
*- Is it any more permissible now vs. before Christ? And, how can someone willfully violate this and still "Love thy neighbor as thyself" ?

6. You shall not murder.
*- Is it any more permissible now vs. before Christ? And, how can someone willfully violate this and still "Love thy neighbor as thyself" ?

7. You shall not commit adultery.
*- Is it any more permissible now vs. before Christ? And, how can someone willfully violate this and still "Love thy neighbor as thyself" ?

8. You shall not steal.
*- Is it any more permissible now vs. before Christ? And, how can someone willfully violate this and still "Love thy neighbor as thyself" ?

9. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
*- Is it any more permissible now vs. before Christ? And, how can someone willfully violate this and still "Love thy neighbor as thyself" ?

10. You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor’s.” - Is it any more permissible now vs. before Christ? And, how can someone willfully violate this and still "Love thy neighbor as thyself" ?


I haven't met a sincere Christian who has tried to convince me that any aspect of the other 9 have changed, but on the 4th one alone, Christians of all kinds have tried to convince me that the specificity of the day is no longer important, that the keep it holy part, isn't meant literally, and that all in all we can simply worship God at our convenience. Why? What is so difficult about this 4th commandment? It asks us to keep it holy, which would imply that it is already holy. Can we ever MAKE anything holy? No, we can't. God is the only one who can MAKE something holy, and after the sixth day of creation He made the Seventh day holy. The day itself is holy. It has been since its creation. Regardless of what a person does on the seventh day, the day is still holy to the Lord. Worshipping on that day makes sense to Sabbath Keepers because they are already keeping the day holy so why not worship together then (in addition to the personal worship they do on a daily basis). Mankind never set the day to begin with and so it has never been our prerogative to change it or decide that it can be whenever we choose it to be. The only reason that a 7 day week exists is because of Creation culminating in God resting on the Seventh day. He specified the day as a perpetual memorial of His creative power. God has said the specificity of the day is important to Him, by carving it in stone with His own finger. Why do so many people, who say they love God with all their heart, in the same breath tell that same God "the day you picked, and set aside is not important, only that I worship you whenever it is convenient for me(and forget about keeping an entire 24hr day holy)"? This 4th commandment is just as important as the 3 other ones that tell us how to "love God with all our heart" and the 6 that tell us how to "love our neighbor as ourself."
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Old 01-22-2011, 09:36 AM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,825 posts, read 9,872,807 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HalfNelson View Post
Scripture makes clear "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me", why do people persist on making statements like "the 10 commandments can't be kept"?
"
For several scriptural reasons:

  • James 2:10
    For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.
  • Romans 3:21
    But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known,
  • Romans 3:28
    For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law.
People enter heaven by being declared justified, not by becoming it through partial obedience.


Attempting it through the law requires 100% obedience...all the time. The result of this effort:
Galatians 5:4
"You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace."


This isn't a case of God's word leaving one http://http.cdnlayer.com/cf/images/smilies/onion/mmh.gif (broken link)

Last edited by twin.spin; 01-22-2011 at 09:49 AM..
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Old 01-22-2011, 10:10 AM
 
3,235 posts, read 2,307,759 times
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sabbath keeping is not a forced issue it is matter of faith...if it is of an inconvience to someone than perhaps they may feel they have found a better god and are enjoying the provisions of that god...it's all choice...that's what this life is all about...choice...enjoy.

monotheism was D.O.A.
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Old 01-22-2011, 10:16 AM
 
Location: Florida
5,261 posts, read 6,263,841 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doesntspringtomind View Post
Verna, Thank you so much for your explanation. I was indeed confused as I've recently heard at least three variations.

1. The Sabbath could be any day
2. The Sabbath can only be Saturday
3. The Sabbath is Saturday for Jews and Sunday for Christians

What I feel now is that if we keep Saturday -- as the Sabbath day -- holy then we make no mistake..... Regardless of whether it is no longer "compulsory" or still is, if we do keep it holy, we make no mistake what-so-ever.

I will be asking the Holy Spirit to give me guidance and confrim the truth to me

God bless!
Greetings doesntspringtomind......It's a perfect day!

Praise God precious sister...that He has opened your eyes and your heart to receive His Truth...no...you cannot make a mistake whatsoever if you keep the Seventh Day holy unto God as He has commanded those who truly love Him to do. Today you can mark this day as a day of new birth for you...this day you have received the Knowledge of The Truth in Christ Jesus in your heart!...What a day to rejoice!!!...and yes...let the Holy Spirit be your guide into all truth...don't simply take my word for it...search diligently and earnestly with all of your heart...remain steadfast in Him...and He will guide you and lead you in the Way you should go...and your life will be blessed beyond measure...you will come to know God better than you can ever imagine...and what His mercy and grace are really all about...and how He uses them for your good.

Grow in Him child of God...seek first His Kingdom...and all things eternal you desire will be added unto you...blessed are the pure in heart...for they will see His face...Hallelujuah!

I will send you a link to a websight that will help you greatly in your search for truth...I will send it to you by DM...and always remember...I am here for you if you ever need me...it would be my honor.


Grace and Peace to you...

In Christ's love,
Verna.

Last edited by Verna Perry; 01-22-2011 at 10:41 AM..
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Old 01-22-2011, 10:26 AM
 
3,553 posts, read 4,388,731 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Verna Perry View Post
Greetings doesntspringtomind......It's a perfect day!

Praise God precious sister...that He has opened your eyes and your heart to receive His Truth...no...you cannot make a mistake whatsoever if you keep the Seventh Day holy unto God as He has commandmed those who truly love Him to do. Today you can mark this day as a day of new birth for you...this day you have received the Knowledge of The Truth in Christ Jesus in your heart!...What a day to rejoice!!!...and yes...let the Holy Spirit be your guide into all truth...don't simply take my word for it...search diligently and earnestly with all of your heart...remain steadfast in Him...and He will guide you and lead you in the Way you should go...and your life will be blessed beyond measure...you will come to know God better than you can ever imagine...and what His mercy and grace are really all about...and how He uses them for your good.

Grow in Him child of God...seek first His Kingdom...and all things eternal you desire will be added unto you...blessed are the pure in heart...for they will see His face...Hallelujuah!

I will send you a link to a websight that will help you greatly in your search for truth...I will send it to you by DM...and always remember...I am here for you if you ever need me...it would be my honor.


Grace and Peace to you...

In Christ's love,
Verna.
You know,,,to be honest,,,,this post scared me. Sorry, but it's the truth.

So the sabbath,,,a day,,,is the reason for born again?
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