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Old 01-22-2011, 11:25 AM
 
1,736 posts, read 1,839,817 times
Reputation: 135

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Do you sin against God or man?

I saw this video and did not agree with it.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SKwWZ2no8tk&feature=channel_page

If I sin, I think I sin against another human. Not against God. Against his law of course, or to be more specific, against the laws that men have attributed to God, but not against God.

This clip ignores the human victim altogether as if the victim has no right to feel offended and also have no responsibility to forgive the offender.

I find it rather droll that we are supposed to see God as the victim of all our sins.

If you were to visualize, for instance, God being the victim of all Gay sins, well you see what I mean.
Rather a startling picture right?

Sin also brings up the topic of forgiveness.

If you or I forgive a sin done against us, is there any reason for the sinner to kowtow to God for more forgiveness?

The sin, once forgiven by you or I is, well, forgiven. What exactly is God forgiving. The sin has been annulled by our forgiveness so God forgiving it is rather superfluous and in reality, if at the pearly gates, God were to seek to punish a forgiven sin then one could make a case that God is unjust.

Is God sticking his nose where it is not required in the case of saying we sin against him and in our seeking forgiveness for a forgiven sin?

Regards
DL
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Old 01-22-2011, 05:55 PM
 
7,883 posts, read 6,700,034 times
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In Matthew 18: 23-35......Jesus said ..`` There for the Kingdom of heaven is like a certain king which would take account of his servants,.... One of his servants was brought to him which owed him ten thousand in money... but he had not to pay , his Lord commanded him to be sold , and his wife , and children, and all that he had, not payment to be made ..... The servant fell down and worshiped him saying; Lord have patience with me , and I will pay you all.....And the Lord of the servant was moved with compassion , and loosed him , and forgave him the debt.... but the same servant went out and found one of his fellow servants, which owed him a hundred pence; and laid hands on him by the throat saying; Pay me what you owe...... and his fellow servant fell down at his feet and pleaded him saying; Have patience with me and I will pay the debt......... So he would not, but went and cast him in prison till he should pay the debt.......So when his fellow servant saw what was done they were very sorry , and came and told their Lord all that was done......Then his Lord after that he had called him, said to him;, ..O YOU WICKED SERVANT, I FORGAVE ALL THAT DEBT ..because you desired me, should you also have compassion on your fellow servant, even as I had pity on you?...... And the Lord was angry and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due on him ........ So like your heavenly Father may do to you if you from your hearts forgive not every one his brothers their trespasses..``............ In this covenant through Jesus Christ, these tormentors may be a curse that the evil spirits gave and would need repentance and forgivness, and deliverance to remove ........... As in Matthew 6: 14-15 ``For if we forgive men their trespasses, your Heavenly Father will also forgive you..., but if you forgive not their trespass, neither will your father forgive your trespasses``.....................
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Old 01-24-2011, 11:20 AM
 
1,736 posts, read 1,839,817 times
Reputation: 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by hljc View Post
In Matthew 18: 23-35......Jesus said ..`` There for the Kingdom of heaven is like a certain king which would take account of his servants,.... One of his servants was brought to him which owed him ten thousand in money... but he had not to pay , his Lord commanded him to be sold , and his wife , and children, and all that he had, not payment to be made ..... The servant fell down and worshiped him saying; Lord have patience with me , and I will pay you all.....And the Lord of the servant was moved with compassion , and loosed him , and forgave him the debt.... but the same servant went out and found one of his fellow servants, which owed him a hundred pence; and laid hands on him by the throat saying; Pay me what you owe...... and his fellow servant fell down at his feet and pleaded him saying; Have patience with me and I will pay the debt......... So he would not, but went and cast him in prison till he should pay the debt.......So when his fellow servant saw what was done they were very sorry , and came and told their Lord all that was done......Then his Lord after that he had called him, said to him;, ..O YOU WICKED SERVANT, I FORGAVE ALL THAT DEBT ..because you desired me, should you also have compassion on your fellow servant, even as I had pity on you?...... And the Lord was angry and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due on him ........ So like your heavenly Father may do to you if you from your hearts forgive not every one his brothers their trespasses..``............ In this covenant through Jesus Christ, these tormentors may be a curse that the evil spirits gave and would need repentance and forgivness, and deliverance to remove ........... As in Matthew 6: 14-15 ``For if we forgive men their trespasses, your Heavenly Father will also forgive you..., but if you forgive not their trespass, neither will your father forgive your trespasses``.....................
It is a very good thing then that there are no trespasses in Godís great plan.
You seem to be placing a need before God. God has no needs.
He does not have a need to forgive what does not need forgiving.
From Godís POV, humans are never fully informed and therefore are not culpable of rebellion against God.

Grace relies on good information.

Given that God wills the very best for us, and given that we ourselves want the very best for ourselves, then it would seem that no one could make a FULLY INFORMED decision against God. And if not FULLY INFORMED, then the free will defense of hell falls down.

For me, this would apply to the above, given that to reject that which is (by the definition of Christians) the very best for us would imply that one is not fully informed.

This argument is developed in many ways in Thomas Talbott's book "The Inescapable Love of God", where he shows how a doctrine of Universalism (all are eventually saved) is compatible with the Biblical teaching as found in the NT, especially the writings of St Paul.

Regards
DL
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