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Four posters have now danced around and side stepped these simple questions. Are there none among you who deny the free will of man and the permissive will of God who are willing to give direct answers to these very simple and straight forward questions? Is that so difficult a thing to do?
You do realize that this type of arrogance is really not conducive for encouraging a response, right?
...Are there none among you who deny the free will of man and the permissive will of God.....
Blah, blah, blah...LOL...Pretending to be one of God's prophets is not going to help you here.
This might not be directed at me, but I'm going to jump in here...
First, we need to look at what scripture says regarding God's law of responsibility:
Exo 21:28 "And if an ox gores a man or a woman to death, the ox shall surely be stoned and its flesh shall not be eaten; but the owner of the ox shall go unpunished.
Exo 21:29 "If, however, an ox was previously in the habit of goring, and its owner has been warned, yet he does not confine it, and it kills a man or a woman, the ox shall be stoned and its owner also shall be put to death.
Now, let's go back to Genesis for a moment:
Gen 3:1 Now the serpent was more crafty than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said to the woman, "Indeed, has God said, 'You shall not eat from any tree of the garden'?"
God not only created the serpent, but owns the serpent. It is owned by God:
Psa 50:10 "For every beast of the forest is Mine, The cattle on a thousand hills.
Psa 50:11 "I know every bird of the mountains, And everything that moves in the field is Mine.
The serpent was God's. God owned the serpent that deceived the woman.
Do you see this? God, who created the serpent, and who owns the serpent, also knew the serpent was prone to mischief (goring like the ox).
Gen 3:1 Now the serpent was more crafty than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said to the woman, "Indeed, has God said, 'You shall not eat from any tree of the garden'?"
The word crafty here in the Hebrew means: Subtle, cunning, and it is used in a bad sense. This serpent was like the ox that gores.
However, God, by his own determinate counsel, did not confine the serpent like His law commands.
Gen 3:13 Then the LORD God said to the woman, "What is this you have done?" And the woman said, "The serpent deceived me, and I ate."
The serpent, like the unconfined ox that is prone to goring, deceived the woman and she, as well as Adam, both died (spiritually).
In a very real sense, Jesus (being God manifested in the flesh) came to fulfill that law of responsibility. Jesus said:
Mat 5:17 "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish, but to fulfill.
So, to refute your first assumption that God is not responsible, He is responsible, but He, being the potter, and us being the clay, God is neither responsible or accountable to man or anything else for that matter. God, being God, is responsible only to Himself. And He demonstrated it by fulfilling His law of responsibility.
God is not responsible for sin. God is not the author of sin. God is not responsible for man's disobedience. James 1:13-15; Job 34:10-12; Psalm 92:15; Sin comes from man's own volition.
God has NO SIN, NOR DOES HE AUTHOR IT! HE DOES NOT AUTHOR THE BREAKING OF HIS OWN NATURE OR ANTAGONISM AGAINST HIMSELF!
Satan was responsible for the first sin in the universe, and Adam was responsible for the first sin in the human race (Romans 5:12).
Adam tried to blame Eve for his sin, and Eve tried to blame the serpent. Operation Blame Game. (Gen 3:12-13). The serpent did in fact deceive Eve. But she was still responsible, just as Adam was responsible for his own decision to disobey God.
Quote:
I'm not able to find your term "permissive will" of God in scripture. Can you find it for me? Or is this another one of your non-scriptural terms that we need to guess at as to what it means?
God's permissive will is a theological technical term, just as is the word Trinity, or rapture. God's permissive will is seen whenever man disobeys God. Simply do a search on the term on Google. I didn't make the term up.
Quote:
Yes. Exodus 20:13
Yes. Read the newspaper...
He does not "permit murder", or any other act of sin for that matter, as if being passive thereto, nor does God commit sin being active therein.
God permits sin. To say as you did that God is the author of sin, but that He does not permit sin is contradictory.
God is not responsible for sin. God is not the author of sin. God is not responsible for man's disobedience. James 1:13-15; Job 34:10-12; Psalm 92:15; Sin comes from man's own volition.
God has NO SIN, NOR DOES HE AUTHOR IT! HE DOES NOT AUTHOR THE BREAKING OF HIS OWN NATURE OR ANTAGONISM AGAINST HIMSELF!
Satan was responsible for the first sin in the universe, and Adam was responsible for the first sin in the human race (Romans 5:12).
Adam tried to blame Eve for his sin, and Eve tried to blame the serpent. Operation Blame Game. (Gen 3:12-13). The serpent did in fact deceive Eve. But she was still responsible, just as Adam was responsible for his own decision to disobey God.
God's permissive will is a theological technical term, just as is the word Trinity, or rapture. God's permissive will is seen whenever man disobeys God. Simply do a search on the term on Google. I didn't make the term up.
God permits sin. To say as you did that God is the author of sin, but that He does not permit sin is contradictory.
LOL...who said any of these things you mentioned? Read what I posted. You really need to do better Mike...LOL
Also, you do realize that I refuted your angelic conflict fantasy with scripture, right?
Last edited by AlabamaStorm; 01-29-2011 at 10:31 PM..
Reason: Removed subnormal IQ...lol
God's permissive will is a theological technical term, just as is the word Trinity, or rapture. God's permissive will is seen whenever man disobeys God. Simply do a search on the term on Google. I didn't make the term up.
I realize you did not make that term up. I don't really think you're capable of doing so...
However, can you tell me where you find the idea of "permissive will" in the scriptures? How are you able to decide what is "permissive" vs. what is according to His determinate counsel? I gave you scriptures. Did you read them?
Let me ask you Mike...when you read a post, or even scripture for that matter, do you actually see the words? Or, are they simple images that flash through your mind and then somehow get confused with other thoughts you have....
I'm not being sarcastic here...I really want to know how you comprehend things...
[color=SeaGreen]Mike, no. If God permitted it anyway, there would not be any such thing as consequences or judgment. If we were "free" to sin, there would not be negative consequences to all our sinful actions (which there are). However, just because we believe in judgment does not mean we subscribe to your version of UNJUST judgment where God remains eternally furious because of man's sin. That sure is a hard shell of bondage you have bound tightly around your core being like a door with triple dead bolts locked![/COLOR]
God's judgments are never unjust. And you are referring to legalists, not to me. Sin is not the issue in salvation. The issue is whether or not a person will receive Christ as Savior.
The fact that God permits sin does not mean that He sanctions or approves of it. God allows man to use his volition even though in so allowing it, man can and does make decisions which are contrary to God's desire. God permits man to make the decision to sin, even though sin is an offense against Him. Man must be free to obey or disobey God. God desires a relationship with His creatures based on reciprocal love. That means that God has to allow man to choose for or against Him and that means that man has to have free will. The ability to choose. See the following passages.
Deut 11:26 ''See, I am setting before you today a blessing and a curse; 27] the blessing, if you listen to the commandments of the LORD your God, which I am commanding you today; 28] and the curse, if you do not listen to the commandments of the LORD your God, but turn aside from the way which I am commanding you today, by following other gods which you have not known.
Isa 65:12 'I will destine you for the sword. And all of you shall bow down to the slaughter. Because I called, but you did not answer; I spoke, but you did not hear, And you did evil in My sight, And chose that in which I did not delight.
Psalms 32:8 'I will instuct you and teach you in the way which you should go; I wil counsel you with My eye upon you. 9] Do not be as the horse or as the mule which have no understanding. Whose trappings include bit and bridle to hold them in check, Otherwise they will not come near to you.
Matthew 23:37 ''O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.
LOL...who said any of these things you mentioned? Read what I posted. You really need to do better Mike...LOL
Also, you do realize that I refuted your angelic conflict fantasy with scripture, right?
Those interested in the angelic conflict (Ephesians 6:10-17) verse 12 'For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places.
I realize you did not make that term up. I don't really think you're capable of doing so...
However, can you tell me where you find the idea of "permissive will" in the scriptures? How are you able to decide what is "permissive" vs. what is according to His determinate counsel? I gave you scriptures. Did you read them?
Those interested in the angelic conflict (Ephesians 6:10-17) verse 12 'For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places.
This "angelic conflict" of your's is a fantasy about God and a fallen angel. Trust me my friend. The potter (God) has power over the clay (all creation, including fallen angels).
Paul, in Eph 6:12 is speaking of the believers conflict with the world system including the religious nonsense you teach concerning God.
I did, and I'm certainly not going to google my way to some website in search of something to support your nonsense. Is that really how you know God, through google and the teachings of men?
Jesus told me (and I hope you also):
Joh 16:13 and when He may come--the Spirit of truth--He will guide you to all the truth, for He will not speak from Himself, but as many things as He will hear He will speak, and the coming things He will tell you;
Jesus did not say to google your way to the truth, or to go to man to seek truth, but rather it is the Spirit, His Spirit that will guide us to all truth.
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