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Old 01-28-2011, 09:41 PM
 
2,526 posts, read 2,313,186 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
The Biblos site has the Helps Word Studies right underneath the Strong's definition as seen below. I thought they were the same thing.

2309. theló 2310 >>

to will, wish
Original Word: θέλω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: theló
Phonetic Spelling: ( eth-el'-o,)
Short Definition: I will, wish, desire
Definition: I will, wish, desire, am willing, intend, design.

Helps Word-Studies

Cognate: 2309 thélō (a primitive verb, NAS dictionary) – to desire (wish, will), wanting what is best (optimal) because someone is ready and willing to act.

2309 /thélō ("to desire, wish") is commonly used of the Lord extending His "best-offer" to the believer – wanting (desiring) to birth His persuasion (faith) in them which also empowers, manifests His presence etc. See 2307 (thelēma).

[Note the close connection between faith (4102 /pístis, "God's inbirthed persuasion") and this root (thel-, 2307 /thélēma); cf. 2 Cor 8:5-7 and Heb 10:36-39).]

Strong's Greek: 2309. ???? (theló) -- to will, wish

Therefore, I'll simply change it to 'Both Vines and Helps Word-Studies recognize the stronger meaning of Boulomai.'

Now readers can refer back to post#68 and view the passage comparisons. On second thought, I'll repost it below with the appropriate changes.

Boulomai has the stronger meaning over thelo.

In Matthew 1:19 the two words appear together.

Matt 1:19 'And Joseph her husband, being a righteous man, and not wanting (thelōn - wishing, desiring) to disgrace her, planned (eboulēthē) [color="blue"]secretly to dismiss her.

In Romans 7:15 'thelo' is used in expressing Pauls desire.

Rom 7:15 'For that which I am doing, I do not understand; for what I want (thelō - desire, wish) that I do not, but what I hate, that I do.

In Romans 9:19 God's sovereign will is in view.

Romans 9:19 You will say to me then, ''Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will (boulēmati - God's absolute overruling will)?''

In 1 Tim 2:4 it is God's Thelo - wish, desire, that all men be saved. Not His absolute overruling will .

1 Tim 2:4 'who desires (thelei - desires,wishes) all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

The passages above show how scripture uses both words. Careful readers will see this.

Both Vines and Helps Word-Studies recognize the stronger meaning of Boulomai.

Vines Greek New Testament Dictionary: boulomai

Helps Word-Studies: Strong's Greek: 1014. ???????? (boulomai) -- to will
Oh, I see...so as long as someone is able to find something on the internet that supports their particular doctrine, that makes it the gospel truth...right, I got it...

So now, Gleason, Gary and Joan from the Discovery Bible are the new go to's for scriptural truth? Yeah, I'll need to bookmark that page...LMAO!!

 
Old 01-28-2011, 09:58 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,197,872 times
Reputation: 892
LP
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
The Biblos site has the Helps Word Studies right underneath the Strong's definition as seen below. I thought they were the same thing.

2309. theló 2310 >>


to will, wish
Original Word: θέλω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: theló
Phonetic Spelling: ( eth-el'-o,)
Short Definition: I will, wish, desire
Definition: I will, wish, desire, am willing, intend, design.

Helps Word-Studies

Cognate: 2309 thélō (a primitive verb, NAS dictionary) – to desire (wish, will), wanting what is best (optimal) because someone is ready and willing to act.

2309 /thélō ("to desire, wish") is commonly used of the Lord extending His "best-offer" to the believer – wanting (desiring) to birth His persuasion (faith) in them which also empowers, manifests His presence etc. See 2307 (thelēma).

[Note the close connection between faith (4102 /pístis, "God's inbirthed persuasion") and this root (thel-, 2307 /thélēma); cf. 2 Cor 8:5-7 and Heb 10:36-39).]

Strong's Greek: 2309. ???? (theló) -- to will, wish

Therefore, I'll simply change it to 'Both Vines and Helps Word-Studies recognize the stronger meaning of Boulomai.'


Now readers can refer back to post#68 and view the passage comparisons. On second thought, I'll repost it below with the appropriate changes.

Boulomai has the stronger meaning over thelo.

In Matthew 1:19 the two words appear together.

Matt 1:19 'And Joseph her husband, being a righteous man, and not wanting (thelōn - wishing, desiring) to disgrace her, planned (eboulēthē) [color="blue"]secretly to dismiss her.


In Romans 7:15 'thelo' is used in expressing Pauls desire.

Rom 7:15 'For that which I am doing, I do not understand; for what I want (thelō - desire, wish) that I do not, but what I hate, that I do.

In Romans 9:19 God's sovereign will is in view.

Romans 9:19 You will say to me then, ''Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will (boulēmati - God's absolute overruling will)?''


In 1 Tim 2:4 it is God's Thelo - wish, desire, that all men be saved. Not His absolute overruling will .

1 Tim 2:4 'who desires (thelei - desires,wishes) all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

The passages above show how scripture uses both words. Careful readers will see this.

Both Vines and Helps Word-Studies recognize the stronger meaning of Boulomai.

Vines Greek New Testament Dictionary: boulomai

Helps Word-Studies: Strong's Greek: 1014. ???????? (boulomai) -- to will
rotflmao !!!
 
Old 01-28-2011, 10:23 PM
 
2,526 posts, read 2,313,186 times
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So now we're to believe the word commentary given in the Discovery Bible???

Here is the Discovery Bibles interpretation of thelo:

...commonly used of the Lord extending His "best-offer"...

His best-offer???? WT...??? We're speaking of God Almighty!! Making His best-offer????

The editors of this bible have turned Jesus into a car salesman... These people have no idea who Jesus is.

Why anyone would post this stuff for Christian consideration is beyond me.
 
Old 01-28-2011, 10:45 PM
 
2,526 posts, read 2,313,186 times
Reputation: 326
The other thing I find interesting here is that Mike is comparing thelo, when used of man (Paul) in Rom 7:13, with how it is used for God in 1 Tim 2:4.

There is a vast difference between the internal struggles that one born of the Spirit experiences against the natural tendencies of the flesh, and how the will (thelo) is used for God.

God has no internal struggles or conflicting wills within. He is not like man.

Isa 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD .
Isa 55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

I think someone needs to shut this thread down...before it becomes more profane...
 
Old 01-29-2011, 12:11 AM
 
20,292 posts, read 15,638,239 times
Reputation: 7403
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlabamaStorm View Post
The other thing I find interesting here is that Mike is comparing thelo, when used of man (Paul) in Rom 7:13, with how it is used for God in 1 Tim 2:4.

There is a vast difference between the internal struggles that one born of the Spirit experiences against the natural tendencies of the flesh, and how the will (thelo) is used for God.

God has no internal struggles or conflicting wills within. He is not like man.

Isa 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD .
Isa 55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

I think someone needs to shut this thread down...before it becomes more profane...
The meanng of a word can be seen by how it is used in various passages. I have presented a number of passages in which both thelo and boulomai are used.

For instance, Romans 9:19 presents God's overruling will, while 1 Tim 2:4 presents God desire or wish that all men be saved.


Romans 9:19 You will say to me then, ''Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will (boulēmati - God's absolute overruling will)?''

In 1 Tim 2:4 it is God's Thelo - wish, desire, that all men be saved. Not His absolute overruling will .

1 Tim 2:4 'who desires (thelei - desires,wishes) all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.



In Matthew 1:19 the two words appear together.

Matt 1:19 'And Joseph her husband, being a righteous man, and not wanting (thelōn - wishing, desiring) to disgrace her, planned (eboulēthē) secretly to dismiss her.' Joseph had no desire - thelo, to disgrace Mary and so it was his intention - eboulethe, to privately send Mary away.

It is God's desire that all men be saved, but it is not God's intention or plan to save anyone apart from the condition of the Gospel.

John 3:16 'For God so loved the world that He gave His uniquely born Son, that whoever believes in Him, should not perish but have eternal life.

John 3:36 ''He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey (believe) the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.''
 
Old 01-29-2011, 12:47 AM
 
17,689 posts, read 8,866,529 times
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‘He who believes [the] Son has eonian life; but he who does not believe [the] Son shall not see life, but the opposition of God continues on him.’
 
Old 01-29-2011, 02:00 AM
 
373 posts, read 310,489 times
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John 3:16 'For God so loved the world that He gave His uniquely born Son, that whoever believes in Him, should not perish but have eternal life.

Voice-Middle
The middle voice indicates the subject performing an action
upon himself (reflexive action) or for his own benefit. E.g.,
"The boy groomed himself." Many verbs which occur only in
middle voice forms are translated in English as having an
active sense; these are called "deponent" verbs, and do not
comply with the normal requirements for the middle voice.
 
Old 01-29-2011, 02:56 AM
 
373 posts, read 310,489 times
Reputation: 98
The main problem I have with the OP is this:
Father is perfect. So all His plans are perfect. All His wishes are perfect.
a] He has a perfect will to save all.
b] He had a perfect plan to give man free will. That free will leads to most not being saved for many reason.

Points a and b clash with eachother. One part of His will wasnts all to be saved. The other part allows many not to be saved.

You try to explain that away with overruling, directive and permissibe will.
God has only one will. A perfect will.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
It is under the Permissive will of God that man's volition or freewill is able to function. Simply put, God allows man to make moral decisions which are often contrary to what He desires.
God had a perfect overrulling will but at the same time had also a perfect permissive will.

If only the slightest change is made to something perfect it's not perfect anymore.

For me that simply disproves the OP.
 
Old 01-29-2011, 07:45 AM
 
20,292 posts, read 15,638,239 times
Reputation: 7403
Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiteWings View Post
The main problem I have with the OP is this:
Father is perfect. So all His plans are perfect. All His wishes are perfect.
a] He has a perfect will to save all.
b] He had a perfect plan to give man free will. That free will leads to most not being saved for many reason.

Points a and b clash with eachother. One part of His will wasnts all to be saved. The other part allows many not to be saved.

You try to explain that away with overruling, directive and permissibe will.
God has only one will. A perfect will.


God had a perfect overrulling will but at the same time had also a perfect permissive will.

If only the slightest change is made to something perfect it's not perfect anymore.

For me that simply disproves the OP.
1.) Did God command man not to murder?

2.) Do men murder anyway?

3.) If men do murder anyway, despite the commandment from God that men are not to murder, does God then permit murder to occur against His stated command?
 
Old 01-29-2011, 08:26 AM
 
Location: Florida
580 posts, read 632,006 times
Reputation: 149
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
Some people see God as a grand puppet master who decides what we order in a restaurant, when we sleep, what we say and what color of car we buy. It is a convenient view point, because it allows the believer to blame God for their own sins. I remember talking about this with someone here who believes in a puppet master God, and the conversation ended up ugly with insults and disrespect being thrown about. If God chose his words for him, then God was guilty of disrespect, not the poster, and God failed to follow
His own teaching of loving your neighbor. Would that make sense? No, of course not. The poster chose his words and the poster was guilty of sin, not God.

God does indeed permit us to go against His desire. He desires us to love our neighbors, but at the same time He permits us to violate that rule. Jesus said He wanted to gather Israel under His wings, but they refused Him. God desires us to believe in Him, but the choice is ours.

Even universalists believe there is penalty for sin, but would it be fair to pay a penalty for something God made them do? No, you pay a penalty for making the wrong CHOICES
Now a question for those who believe God creates their every move and thought. Since we know---

Ecclesiastes 7:14
When times are good, be happy; but when times are bad, consider this: God has made the one as well as the other. Therefore, no one can discover anything about their future.

All for His Glory and many cannot accept this, whether bad or good.
Did Job have a choice?
Did David?
Did Moses?
Did Paul?
Why did God allow their choices or permit them? Uhmm, still God!
Everyone reaps what they sow and their is no favortism, so if the bad happens,-consider- what may you have done? (sober judgement). Or, I praise you Lord, I know this is for your glory!

Why would God bound all men over to sin?? So, He may have mercy on them all.
God is the only One worthy of all praise and glory. Jesus fills everything in everyway!

Looking for God during a time of murder, adultery, rape, etc. Do we only look for God in the good times? Do we seek Him more in good times or bad?
What brought many to Christ? Blind, Mute, Lepers, Hungry, Lame, etc.

God Bless,
Mercy
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